Double penalties in life and golf.

[John Kavanaugh]

Once again today I read a poster who thought it was wrong to be in a bunker and have to negotiate a tree.  Double jeopardy, he called it.  How does this reflect what we find in the real world outside of golf and why is it wrong?  Aren't double jeopardies natural?  What are some examples?

For one: We are all well aware of the hazard of adultery, so is the possibility of catching an STD double jeopardy? 

Another: Speeding is illegal but costs us more in gas and insurance.

Any more?

[Scott Warren]

The fact that a lot of your posts are completely mindless AND they deter some other more interesting posters from contributing to the forum.

Would that be an example?

[Melvyn Morrow]

John

I never believed in euthanasia until I started reading your posts again. Any thoughts on the matter, I need cheering up .

Melvyn

[Bill_McBride]

The only good thing about double penalties - which I do believe should be avoided in golf - is the joy at successful negotiation of both Scylla and Charybdis in one shot.

Our old fifth hole at Pensacola had a fairway bunker left, about 140 from the green.  Only the right quarter of the green was visible, with the rest blocked by a dense grove of very mature pines.  One day son David was in the bunker and the pin was left.  Somehow he drew a 9-iron out of the bunker and around the trees to three feet.   I was very impressed, shot of the year!

[Adam Clayman]

As for trees affecting a bunker shot, no formula is a good thing. Mr. Doak has come down on the side of accepting this type of double jeopardy. My take is that a few instances are acceptable, but anymore than that, is over done.

Heck, I've even planned on hitting the tree to help stop my ball on the green. If anything inspires creative thinking, how can it be bad?

[Mike Benham]

This might be appropriate for a post where Melvyn calls out Kavanaugh:

[John Kavanaugh]

Let me try to make this more simple:  If I were a sheep I would build my bed near a tree.  Double hazards are natural.

[Melvyn Morrow]

John

There you go with those bad vibrations again, now we all know on GCA that sheep make bunkers and do not like trees as generally no trees on links courses – where sheep make bunkers – Oh hell those ever decreasing circles on top of those bad vibes, where’s the gun. Soon we will all be doing that Australian thing with Sheep, so I will stick to Sheila’s.

Well Mike at least we have a pot and a kettle between us what do you have - looks like a little duck on your logo, can’t be a man of your stature or are you just another black pot – no reference to your stomach

Melvyn

[Jeff_Brauer]

Adam,

The only problem with the "few instances" situation is that most define acceptable instances to be those that happen to the other guy, and unacceptable instances to be ones that happen to themselves, no?

[Dan Kelly]

Want to avoid bunkers? Don't hit it there.

Doubly want to avoid trees and bunkers? Don't hit it there, don't hit it there.

Want to avoid trying to imagine what one would think if one were a sheep? Stay the hell away from golfclubatlas.com!

[David Kelly]

Want to avoid bunkers? Don't hit it there.

Doubly want to avoid trees and bunkers? Don't hit it there, don't hit it there.

Want to avoid bad architecture? Don't play there.

[Mark Bourgeois]

The only examples I have are from poor architects. Can anyone cite an example of Coore or Doak doing this?

[John Kavanaugh]

The only examples I have are from poor architects. Can anyone cite an example of Coore or Doak doing this?

Just go play #10 at Pasatiempo.  Mackenzie designed the tree in the half pipe and Doak left it.

[Mark Bourgeois]

We've done better than the daily double and have hit the trifecta. The course in my pics is a Coore.

EDIT: ...and to spell it out, no, I don't think Coore is a poor architect and, yes, I think the course pictured is quite good.

[John Kavanaugh]

Check out the tree in the bunker on #10 from this slide show of near original Pasa.

http://www.pasatiempo.com/web/slideshows/flash/hist1/hist1.php

[Mark Bourgeois]

Do you have any pics from Christmastime?

EDIT: I have to admit MacDoak's tree is cloaked in a far more elegant bunker than Coore's. All I can offer in defense are bunker-tree "embeds:"





What if, instead of considering them as double jeopardy, bunker-trees are more a form of skill-based punishment? The better golfer is not fazed by bunkers, or only marginally, whereas the chop struggles to advance the ball.

By placing a bunker-tree on the line of play the better play is frustrated but the chop takes the message and pitches out.

It's a great example of how golf puts golfers of vastly different abilities on the same course and allows them to have a competition.

Let me know which address you'd like to send my steak knives to.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

I'm looking at the post renovation aerial and there is no tree there.  I also didn't recall one being there back when we played it for KP.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

I'm looking at the post renovation aerial and there is no tree there.  I also didn't recall one being there back when we played it for KP.

Yes, I owe Doak an apology.  I played Pasa pre-resto.  Here is a link showing pre and post.

http://www.pasatiempo.com/web/restore/hole10.php

Also a link to a discussion of this hole: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31402.0.html

Why Mackenzie left the tree we will never know.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

In the 2 photos, a sideways shot out of the bunker will avoid the tree. If there was a bunker that was so deep one could only play sideways out of it, does it make the deep bunker also a "double penalty” bunker?

Where are the "double penalties"? Is it a slight loss of distance by hitting the bunker in the first place and then loss of distance because one has to hit out sideways?

Shouldn’t a few "double penalty" bunkers be built into a golf course layout to add some salt and pepper?

My philosophy of life is based loosely on the game of Snakes and Ladders - the double penalty being, throwing a one and landing on a snake.

[Kalen Braley]

OOB:

The ultimate golf double penalty.  You lose a stroke and distance.  Ditto for an unplayable lie where you can't take a playable legal drop, or a lost ball.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

Apology accepted.

My favorite "double penalty" situation is the greenside bunker on #12 at Crystal Downs, which is overhung by a few white birch trees.  The bunker is only about a foot deep, so it's hardly a penalty at all, but if you are in the wrong part of the bunker and the flag is to the right, the trees may prevent you from playing directly toward the hole with your bunker shot.  In fact, it happened to me two weeks ago on my first round of the year.  I had to play twenty feet left of the flag instead of straight at it ... BECAUSE I WAS STUPID ENOUGH TO LAND IN THE BUNKER WITH THE FLAG ON THE RIGHT OF THE GREEN, when there is nobody who knows better than me that's a stupid mistake to make.

On other occasions, this combination has resulted in me putting out of the bunker, or trying to hit a low chip out of the bunker ... a shot that takes great skill.  What's wrong with asking for that every once in a while, if the golfer has put himself in double jeopardy?

[JMEvensky]

Doesn't Southern Hills have a tree in a green side bunker--maybe # 9?

I wouldn't want a steady diet of bunker/tree combinations,but 1 or 2 per course I could live with.I think I'd prefer the tree in or near a green side bunker rather than a fairway bunker.

[Kalen Braley]

Would you rather have a single tree be your punishment for landing in a bunker.

Or be rewarded with this for landing smack dab in the middle of the fairway! 

[JMEvensky]

Kalen,between this thread and the other one,you've almost got me convinced that CPC actually sucks.

[cary lichtenstein]

Brain aneurysm and esoph cancer!