George Junor's Astoria CC, Between and across the dunes

[Sean_A]

What an odd looking course!  IMO the most interesting hole is the 10th.  I really like the concept of a volcano type hole, the fallaway on three sides.  I must say, from viewing the pix the course doesn't look enticing.  However, if I were nearby with time to kill I would certainly give it a go.

Thanks for posting Garland.

Ciao

[JohnV]

Comments on Gearhart?

I haven't played Gearhart since they did a bunch of work on it a few years ago, but in general the dunes are lower and wider than Astoria this allows for a few of the holes run along the tops of them instead of through the valleys.  There are also a couple of holes where you tee off from one dune to the valley and they up to a green on the other side.  It is also a fun course to play and in some ways might be better than Astoria.  If I was in the area, I'd play both of them.

[Garland Bayley]

Jason,
...Originally before Junor got there in like the 1910's, somebody else supposedly suggested cutting through the dunes. Junor's routing eventually prevailed and the rest is history. ...

I.e., the minimalists view won out and we have something that is cherished that Jack Nicklaus and the like would never have imagined in a million years.

[Garland Bayley]

I returned to Astoria yesterday and played in the wind. These pictures from a couple of years ago were taken on a beautiful, warm,  calm day. This course is even more of a treat than it was before. I did not take my camera this time, because of the predicted bad weather. Surprisingly we did not get wet, so I could have used the camera if I had taken it.

The reason it was even more of a treat is that in December last year they had three continuous days of hurricane force winds. Therefore, it seemed to me that more than half the trees were gone. No longer was there the (IMO) ugly lines of silly trees lining the parallel fairways, but a much more attractive, though still not optimal, random grouping of trees along the fairways. A picture of the orignal course in the clubhouse shows there were no trees on the holes pictured in it.

One thing that impressed me this time that I did not notice last time was the slope of the greeens. On approximately (I wasn't keeping stats) 1/3 of the greens all or most of the green slopes to the back. Trying to keep my approaches below the hole on greens I was not familiar with meant that I was putting from above the hole after successfully keeping my approach on the front. Unfortunately, this lead to a couple of extra putts.

Many people will note that the greens don't have the undulations of say a Tetherow. However, if you realize that some of the greens at Astoria are the size of a pinable area at Tetherow, this doesn't seem quite so significant.

Although, I don't believe it was mentioned in this thread, the course was discussed on several threads two years ago. There were a few people that would not believe the assertion of someone else who had played there that the two narrowest holes had fairways 12 yards wide. I checked them yesterday, and they are indeed 12 yards wide.

In the past I have mentioned the repetition of the tunnels. However, after this trip played in the wind, I realized that  although superficially the holes seem the same, when you consider, for example, one is played 420 yards into the prevailing wind and the other is played 260 yards with the prevailing wind, they are completely different holes evoking completely different strategic options.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Garland,

Have they eliminated some of the trees which look like they were an afterthought ?

The course looks like fun.

I hope I get the chance to play it one day.

[Pete_Pittock]

Patrick,
  The winds were equal opportunity. It took out some strategic trees and left a lot of inconsequential stuff. I played earlier this year and it is probably a coupe of strokes easier.
   I was playing with two Astoria members today (at Royal Oaks) and they said there was planning underway for new tree plantings.
   The greens usally have a general 25 yard radius to them, and while the majority have a back to front slope, the bigger issue you deal with is the side slopes from the dunes.

[Garland Bayley]

...   I was playing with two Astoria members today (at Royal Oaks) and they said there was planning underway for new tree plantings.
...

What a shame. If they are planning to plant them to replace the lost ones, that would seem to mean they are planning to return it to the artificial looking stripes of trees then grass then trees then grass. On a majority of the holes, missing a shot means you have a severe lie and stance to deal with. They don't need the trees. The scrubby shore pines that were there certainly don't provide any safety factor. IMO, they would be more dangerous in deflecting a ball back at a player who mishits than they ever would be in defecting an incoming shot. They are so short that a bad miss is rewarded by allowing an easy shot over them, and speaking as the king of bad misses that statement is from experience. I can only think of one tree lost that could have been considered significantly strategic (drive on 16). A bunker properly placed could easily serve the same purpose, and would have the cool feature of being hidden, which is really no problem on a members course.

EDIT:

The trees on the left are gone. The one that obscures the view of the green (which is just left of the bunker to the right of the tree) is the one strategic tree that is gone. One could either hide a bunker up close to the dune on the left, or place a bunker on the left that showed a small deceptive piece from the tee.

[Ryan Farrow]

So if these dunes are made of sand, wouldn't a massive dirt move do wonders..... ? These "Dunes" do not look very conducive to finding good golf holes.

[Garland Bayley]

So if these dunes are made of sand, wouldn't a massive dirt move do wonders..... ? These "Dunes" do not look very conducive to finding good golf holes.

I guess you just don't get it. There are great golf holes there, because they did not move dirt (sand).

[Kalen Braley]

Garland,

I would say that some of those hole are indeed unique and certainly fit the definition of quirk in my book.

But I don't see anything even remotely resembling "great"

[Dale Jackson]

An interesting tidbit about the original design.

Mike Riste's recently published biography of A.V. Macan contains an appendix that lists all of Macan's work, new courses and renovations.  That Appendix contains the following short quote out of the February 2, 1924 Seattle Post Intelligencer, "The course, which is about 6,300 yards in length and laid out by R.C.F. Ashbury of Portland.  The survey was checked by A.V. Macan of Victoria, B.C."

The Club's website explains, "The Board of Directors employed the services of R.C. Asbury, a purported golf course architect, to lay out the golf course. Mr. Asbury’s proposal had the course running east and west, thus making most play across and over the top of the rolling sand dunes of the property. This plan was not acceptable to the Club President, George Halderman and the Board, so subsequently Halderman and George Junor, the first greens keeper, laid out the course in its present north and south directions between the dunes, following the natural terrain which had been shaped by sand, wind and sea."

I think it is a really neat looking course, with its fair share of quirk and I can well understand Tommy's reaction upon seeing the third hole.  I think a trip to Bandon in the summer is going to be lengthened by one day and another course added to the itinerary!

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

I would say that some of those hole are indeed unique and certainly fit the definition of quirk in my book.

But I don't see anything even remotely resembling "great"

That's because you suffer from the same myopia that Ryan does. If you ask Ryan to build a great 280 yard drivable par 4, he will get busy and build all kinds of defenses to the green that make recovery difficult if you attempt to drive the green. He will also provide a patch of fairway for those that choose to lay up.

George Junor built a great drivable par 4 by taking the land just as it was and not messing with it. What better defense could you build than a 30 to 40 foot sand dune on either side of a small green where if you miss significantly on either side you are up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle. If you miss by a little and hang up in the rough you have the most awkward stance imaginable on the face of a steep 30 to 40 foot high sand dune. What better fairway to lay up on than a 12 yard fairway the length of the hole which gives you an extreme range of choices for how far you hit your tee shot to find it. It doesn't dictate the layup shot that the hole Ryan would construct does.

Are there no competent optometrists in Spokane?

[Garland Bayley]

...  I think a trip to Bandon in the summer is going to be lengthened by one day and another course added to the itinerary!

The course has been so popular in the past that they have shut down all reciprocal play during the summer, thereby denying other members of this treehouse from playing it when they were in the area. Don't know the current situation, but it bears looking into before making definite plans.

[Terry Lavin]

Garland,

I would say that some of those hole are indeed unique and certainly fit the definition of quirk in my book.

But I don't see anything even remotely resembling "great"

That's because you suffer from the same myopia that Ryan does. If you ask Ryan to build a great 280 yard drivable par 4, he will get busy and build all kinds of defenses to the green that make recovery difficult if you attempt to drive the green. He will also provide a patch of fairway for those that choose to lay up.

George Junor built a great drivable par 4 by taking the land just as it was and not messing with it. What better defense could you build than a 30 to 40 foot sand dune on either side of a small green where if you miss significantly on either side you are up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle. If you miss by a little and hang up in the rough you have the most awkward stance imaginable on the face of a steep 30 to 40 foot high sand dune. What better fairway to lay up on than a 12 yard fairway the length of the hole which gives you an extreme range of choices for how far you hit your tee shot to find it. It doesn't dictate the layup shot that the hole Ryan would construct does.

Are there no competent optometrists in Spokane?

Am I alone in thinking that Kalen and Garland are in fact the same person, involved in an extensive battle with opposite sides of personality? 

[Kalen Braley]

Garland,

I've never played the hole, nor seen it in person, so I will neither condemn it nor glorify it...but from the pics it doesn't appear to be a "great" hole.

I think while most on GCA.com appreciate when a hole is made to look like it was always there by pushing dirt around to make it appear as if it were naturally occurring....the converse can also be true.

Just because a piece of land was indeed naturally formed, doesn't mean that its form cannot look unnatural and make for an awkward golf hole...and that's what comes to mind when I see this.

But perhaps I'll drive by and take a look this summer during the family vacation on the Oregon Coast! 

[Terry Lavin]

A great friend of mine from college is the grounds superintendent there if anybody needs a hook-up.

[Bill_McBride]

Garland,

I would say that some of those hole are indeed unique and certainly fit the definition of quirk in my book.

But I don't see anything even remotely resembling "great"

That's because you suffer from the same myopia that Ryan does. If you ask Ryan to build a great 280 yard drivable par 4, he will get busy and build all kinds of defenses to the green that make recovery difficult if you attempt to drive the green. He will also provide a patch of fairway for those that choose to lay up.

George Junor built a great drivable par 4 by taking the land just as it was and not messing with it. What better defense could you build than a 30 to 40 foot sand dune on either side of a small green where if you miss significantly on either side you are up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle. If you miss by a little and hang up in the rough you have the most awkward stance imaginable on the face of a steep 30 to 40 foot high sand dune. What better fairway to lay up on than a 12 yard fairway the length of the hole which gives you an extreme range of choices for how far you hit your tee shot to find it. It doesn't dictate the layup shot that the hole Ryan would construct does.

Are there no competent optometrists in Spokane?

Am I alone in thinking that Kalen and Garland are in fact the same person, involved in an extensive battle with opposite sides of personality? 

Terry, I have seen them both although at different events and different times, and they are definitely two different people.

Plus they played "The Grudge Match at Wine Valley" (AKA "The Brawla at Walla Walla") so have to be two different people.

But you could be right....

[Kalen Braley]

Garland,

I would say that some of those hole are indeed unique and certainly fit the definition of quirk in my book.

But I don't see anything even remotely resembling "great"

That's because you suffer from the same myopia that Ryan does. If you ask Ryan to build a great 280 yard drivable par 4, he will get busy and build all kinds of defenses to the green that make recovery difficult if you attempt to drive the green. He will also provide a patch of fairway for those that choose to lay up.

George Junor built a great drivable par 4 by taking the land just as it was and not messing with it. What better defense could you build than a 30 to 40 foot sand dune on either side of a small green where if you miss significantly on either side you are up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle. If you miss by a little and hang up in the rough you have the most awkward stance imaginable on the face of a steep 30 to 40 foot high sand dune. What better fairway to lay up on than a 12 yard fairway the length of the hole which gives you an extreme range of choices for how far you hit your tee shot to find it. It doesn't dictate the layup shot that the hole Ryan would construct does.

Are there no competent optometrists in Spokane?

Am I alone in thinking that Kalen and Garland are in fact the same person, involved in an extensive battle with opposite sides of personality? 

Terry, I have seen them both although at different events and different times, and they are definitely two different people.

Plus they played "The Grudge Match at Wine Valley" (AKA "The Brawla at Walla Walla") so have to be two different people.

But you could be right....

I must admit,

I'm curious for Terry to further elaborate on what he meant by an "extensive battle with opposite sides of personality?"

I'm the charming/charisimatic/handsome one, so its not looking good for Garland   

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

I would say that some of those hole are indeed unique and certainly fit the definition of quirk in my book.

But I don't see anything even remotely resembling "great"

That's because you suffer from the same myopia that Ryan does. If you ask Ryan to build a great 280 yard drivable par 4, he will get busy and build all kinds of defenses to the green that make recovery difficult if you attempt to drive the green. He will also provide a patch of fairway for those that choose to lay up.

George Junor built a great drivable par 4 by taking the land just as it was and not messing with it. What better defense could you build than a 30 to 40 foot sand dune on either side of a small green where if you miss significantly on either side you are up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle. If you miss by a little and hang up in the rough you have the most awkward stance imaginable on the face of a steep 30 to 40 foot high sand dune. What better fairway to lay up on than a 12 yard fairway the length of the hole which gives you an extreme range of choices for how far you hit your tee shot to find it. It doesn't dictate the layup shot that the hole Ryan would construct does.

Are there no competent optometrists in Spokane?

Am I alone in thinking that Kalen and Garland are in fact the same person, involved in an extensive battle with opposite sides of personality? 

Terry, I have seen them both although at different events and different times, and they are definitely two different people.

Plus they played "The Grudge Match at Wine Valley" (AKA "The Brawla at Walla Walla") so have to be two different people.

But you could be right....

I must admit,

I'm curious for Terry to further elaborate on what he meant by an "extensive battle with opposite sides of personality?"

I'm the charming/charisimatic/handsome one, so its not looking good for Garland   

I'm the skinny one.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Just because a piece of land was indeed naturally formed, doesn't mean that its form cannot look unnatural and make for an awkward golf hole...and that's what comes to mind when I see this.
...

If you are observant while on property, you can look to see that exactly the same landforms continue off property, thereby making them obviously natural.