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Mark Bourgeois

Re: Did Mackenzie assist Colt with the Eden?
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2008, 10:41:04 PM »
Paul

Nice pic!

Yes, of course it should be credited to Colt unless something substantial turns up.  That either will come or it won't.

And let's not make this about the greens alone.  It's more interesting to compare and contrast the two's design principles and concurrent work.  Both for example wrote about the benefits of elasticity; did they come to this together, did they get it from a third party, or did one come to it first and influence the other?  Doubt the answers can be gotten at conclusively, but it's interesting to explore, don't you think?  Colt must have gotten to know Mackenzie fairly well in order for him to propose Mac to the R&A, yes?

The issue of forced carries is an interesting one, too, as somewhere between 1906 and 1912 Colt had a change of heart. He said it was down to the new ball and the influence of the editor of Golf Illustrated (Garden Smith?). Did Colt influence Mac here?

And how much of this stuff is just design 101, practiced by all, versus special to Colt and / or Mackenzie? For example, Mackenzie wrote of the importance of placing bunkers hard against greens -- so, too, did Colt.  It would appear not every designer believed (or believes) this -- was this a meeting of their minds or did in fact many / most designers agree?  And did Colt ram his bunkers as closely as Mackenzie -- did each carry a different meaning of "close to", as in: "close to the green"?

And finally to the greens: Paul, did Colt *always* built them wild enough to draw public criticism?  Not saying he copied Mackenzie, or for that matter that Mackenzie copied him.  Just wondering if / how the two might have influenced each other, and how Colt "evolved."

For in 1906 Colt wrote:
Quote
The natural undulations of the ground will no doubt be retained, and possibly some artificial ones will be created.  Perfectly flat putting is uninteresting, but greens of a very undulating nature are not easy to keep in good order, as the grass growing on the banks is more difficult to feed, and, of course, such greens afford fewer positions for the holes, and ought, therefore, to be proportionately larger.  Any sharp banks or hills will need to be modified, otherwise there will be some impossible putts.

In 1912 he wrote:
Quote
Eighteen flat greens are to me an abomination, and the pleasantly undulating green which provides “possible” putting even in a dry summer is far preferable.  On the other hand, two or three examples of the flat green are an advantage.

It seems from this passage he did not wish for greens so bold as Mackenzie’s, and yet your photographs seem to show a different side of Colt.  Maybe he believed in "pleasantly undulating" all along, or maybe his definition of "flat" or for that matter "undulating" was not how others would define the terms.

What to make of all this?

Mark

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Mackenzie assist Colt with the Eden?
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2008, 12:52:23 AM »
Mike
In contrast to the Merion/Wilson/Macdonald threads we like to keep ours civilised and helpful! I'm not sure what your point is though. Way back in 1981 Cornish and Whitten attributed the Eden to Colt and Mackenzie both and there has been conjecture ever since. This was reinforced by the same attribution by them in The Architects of Golf.

No one that I can see is espousing with any certainty that Mackenzie was involved, when I found the article showing Mackenzie was at St Andrews watching the first professional event on the Eden I naturally wondered why. As I said, absent that "smoking gun" piece of evidence it will, I suspect, remain all conjecture and opinion - but is there anything wrong with that? No-one is trying to make Colt a lesser figure by suggesting the possibility that Mackenzie may have worked on the Eden course.

Actually Mike, crediting Colt solely with the Eden would be modifying accepted architectural attribution, not the other way round!

In this matter, I am an agnostic and will continue to seek a shard of confirmation that may arise one day, til then I am happy to accept the Eden as a Colt course.

cheers Neil

Rich Goodale

Re: Did Mackenzie assist Colt with the Eden?
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2008, 03:13:53 AM »
Neil and the rest of the crack MacK team

Did the Good Doctor ever advertise or write about the Eden as one of his courses?  If not, that seems to be a pretty good clue that he was not involved.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Mackenzie assist Colt with the Eden?
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2008, 06:06:14 AM »
Rich
Not that we've seen. :(

Ray Haddock seems to think Mackenzie did assist Colt but based on what, I don't know. I think he was the one who added the text that indicated this into The Spirit of St Andrews. I've asked him but haven't heard back. Perhaps there was something in the trunk!

Mike_Cirba

Re: Did Mackenzie assist Colt with the Eden?
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2008, 06:33:48 AM »
Mike
In contrast to the Merion/Wilson/Macdonald threads we like to keep ours civilised and helpful! I'm not sure what your point is though. Way back in 1981 Cornish and Whitten attributed the Eden to Colt and Mackenzie both and there has been conjecture ever since. This was reinforced by the same attribution by them in The Architects of Golf.

No one that I can see is espousing with any certainty that Mackenzie was involved, when I found the article showing Mackenzie was at St Andrews watching the first professional event on the Eden I naturally wondered why. As I said, absent that "smoking gun" piece of evidence it will, I suspect, remain all conjecture and opinion - but is there anything wrong with that? No-one is trying to make Colt a lesser figure by suggesting the possibility that Mackenzie may have worked on the Eden course.

Actually Mike, crediting Colt solely with the Eden would be modifying accepted architectural attribution, not the other way round!

In this matter, I am an agnostic and will continue to seek a shard of confirmation that may arise one day, til then I am happy to accept the Eden as a Colt course.

cheers Neil

Neil,

I'm all for civilization!  Lord knows we could use some in the world today!!  ;D

Thanks for the explanation.   As someone unfamiliar with the C&W background, I was struggling to see the relevance of some of the information presented or the point of some of the speculation.

I will say that in my own research I've found errors within C&W, which is not to be unexpected given the tremendous breadth of their efforts.

Cheers,
Mike

Thomas MacWood

Re: Did Mackenzie assist Colt with the Eden?
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2008, 06:38:51 AM »
In all the ads I've seen he claimed to have advised the Royal & Ancient, St.Andrews, Prestwick and Troon. In fact that was the main emphasis of his ads. That being said I think it is pretty clear Eden was a Colt solo effort. I don't believe the two men worked together prior to WWI, other than at Alwoodley.

Colt and Mackenzie both had excellent opportunities to mention a collaboration at Eden in their 1920 books. Alwoodley is mentioned, but no other course that I'm remember. Speaking of St. Andrews I've found a couple of blirbs that mentioned AM designed the Old Course. I think he gave that drawing of his away liberally, it was his calling card, and if you didn't know much about the subject could easily conclude it was his plan for the course. I'm certain he never told anyone he designed the course, but he may not have gone out of his way to correct them either.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Did Mackenzie assist Colt with the Eden?
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2008, 07:23:04 AM »
I'm too lazy to go look, but was Mackenzie responsible for the changes to the Old in 1920?

Mark

PS Rich, perhaps you could give a nudge to the historian there!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 07:24:39 AM by Mark Bourgeois »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Did Mackenzie assist Colt with the Eden?
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2008, 07:53:47 AM »
Not related to anything gents, but just a couple of tidbits on Mackenzie-Colt. The first, from 1926, when Joshua Crane was getting back at Mackenzie for his criticisms of Crane's low-ranking of TOC:

"He might find it rather hard to explain why, when he collaborated with Mr. Colt on the New Course at Sunningdale, he did not transplant some of St. Andrews wonderful (?) holes and thus show his appreciation of its excellences."

The second is from a 1917 article on the USGA's amateur-professional debate:

"There is no secret, of course, about the identity of these gentlemen. One is Mr. H. S. Colt, who has laid out courses not only here but in many parts of the world, including the United States and Canada, and before the war was conducting a most extensive business in this direction, to the satisfaction, I think I may say, of all concerned. Another is Mr. Herbert Fowler, and a third is Dr. Mackenzie, of Leeds, who has laid out many fine courses in the north including Alwoodley, one of the very best. Although Mr. Colt and Mr. Fowler are good players, and the former has been in the semi-final of the amateur championship (but none of the three has ever won a championship) it would be entirely wrong to suggest that they owe their position and popularity as architects to their skill and playing reputation at the game. I am sure that that is not so. They have achieved their position through the merits of their work, and it is not believed here that any player could ever gain succeed and money as a course architect on his playing reputation, as to some extent professionals may have done."

P

Thomas MacWood

Re: Did Mackenzie assist Colt with the Eden?
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2008, 08:18:48 AM »
I'm too lazy to go look, but was Mackenzie responsible for the changes to the Old in 1920?

Mark

PS Rich, perhaps you could give a nudge to the historian there!

Colt redesigned the New course in 1919; his written report is in Colt & Co.

Back to the AM's Old Course map. As most know Dr. Hurdzan is an avid collector of golf books. Some years ago he ran across a fellow in Hollywood, Cal who had a copy of Mackenzie's 'Golf Architecture' - signed by the good doctor. He bought the book and the gentleman sent it to him. After it arrived MH was leafing through it when a folded up piece of paper fell out. That piece of paper was the Old Course map with a personal inscription from AM to AW Tillinghast. Evidently the book and the map belonged to Tilly, which makes sense since Tilly had an anitque shop in Beverly Hills during the Depression. I reckon Tilly sold the book to put a little money in his pocket.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Mackenzie assist Colt with the Eden?
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2008, 08:34:02 AM »
Mark
I checked in Scott Macpherson's book on TOC and could not find any specific mentions of Mackenzie being responsible for any of the changes there.

Peter P
Thanks for this, I raised the matter of a possible Mackenzie collaboration with Colt on the New course at Sunningdale, based on that mention by Crane, in another thread a while back. I think the result was inconclusive. While Crane's comment is a lead it would need some corroboration which I've yet to see.

Tom
Interesting story about the copy of Golf Architecture. The map must have been folded many times to fit inside as its rather a small book, only 6.5" x 4". Still a nice find for Mike!

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Did Mackenzie assist Colt with the Eden?
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2008, 08:45:50 AM »
Neil, did Scott provide any attribution on who did it? But I digress...

What about the post WWI changes to the Eden?

I read the briefest mention of a small-sounding change, the removal of whins from one hole.

Was that the only change and was any architect involved?

Mark

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Mackenzie assist Colt with the Eden?
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2008, 08:55:25 AM »
Mark -

I'll check my MacPherson, but I thought John Low did the TOC changes in the early 20's.

Tom -

Great story.

Bob

Rich Goodale

Re: Did Mackenzie assist Colt with the Eden?
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2008, 12:19:56 PM »
Bob

My understanding is that any changes made by Low (with Old Tom Morris)were done around the turn of the last century.

Rich

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Mackenzie assist Colt with the Eden?
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2008, 10:33:53 AM »
Here's some nice aerials of the Eden:

Western end 1940:


and the same 2006:


Central Area 1940 (note triangular turf nursery):


and 2006:


Eastern end 1940:


and the much altered 2006:


Colt's use of all those existing field boundaries and natural features is especially evident in the 1940 pics, isn't it! Why the Links Trust didn't use more of the land they gave to the Strathtyrum and Balgove courses instead of that nonsense at the west end is still a source of great mystery and bemusement to me.

cheers,
FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Mackenzie assist Colt with the Eden?
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2008, 09:00:49 AM »
HI Guys,

I see my name has been mentioned  8). I don't want to digress from what is a really interesting thread, but as for TOC, no changes to it can be directly attributed to Mackenzie or Low as far as I can recall (I don't have my book with me here). I came to believe that both of those gentlemen, and others besides (including Colt), put their opinions in the R&A Greens committee, and they made the decisions. It may not be a stretch to say that the days of solo design work on TOC ended with Old Tom's passing.

Nice work Neil, and you other guys.



PS- It is one of my great disappointments that I never got the play Colt's Eden before the changes.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Mackenzie assist Colt with the Eden? NEW Mac involved post WW1
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2011, 08:12:19 PM »
Some new information has come to hand that would appear to indicate that Mackenzie was involved in changes to both the Eden and the New Courses at St Andrews in 1920. A letter from Mac to his client at Bury Golf club, Norman Duxbury and dated July 19 1920 indicated that Mac was on the train north "to visit courses at Troon, Pollok, the New & Eden courses St Andrews, & Dinsdale Spa". It is known that Colt undertook a revision of the New in 1919/1920, with part of his report included in Colt & Co. So it would appear likely that Colt asked Mackenzie to go north in 1920 to, presumably, take a look over construction on the New in progress. However, saying that he was going to the Eden as well is quite interesting, as I do not believe it was previously known that the partnership of Colt, Mackenzie and Alison was undertaking work at the Eden post WW1 as well as the New.

We know from the Bury correspondence that Alison visited the site during construction on at least three occasions, basically due to Mackenzie being very busy elsewhere. So it would seem to be a not uncommon practice for other partner members to cover for the others on construction inspections during the period of 1919 to 1923 when the partnership was in force. And as Mackenzie was the furthest north in Leeds he was a good deal closer to St Andrews. I would therefore think it likely that he may well have undertaken a number of other construction inspections at the New and the Eden during this time.

What was done at the Eden in 1920 I wonder?


Neil_Crafter

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Apologies for bumping my own post but hopefully someone has some comment to make on this.

Sean Walsh

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Neil,

I'm only guessing but I expect it included changes to 8(what is currently 8).  I believe it had a significant amount of gorse around it originally and was much criticised for its penality.  Other than that not sure.


Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sean
Thanks for this. Although if the work wasn't much more than gorse removal wonder why they needed architects? Must have been more substantial I would have thought.
Neil

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Neil:

I have always thought the greens for the present first hole (originally the par-3 3rd) and the next par-3 (now the fifth I think) looked much more like MacKenzie's work than Colt's.  Of course I have no documentation to prove it.  But, you might be able to deduce the same thing if you could find an early enough account of the course to see if it mentions the wild contouring of those greens and whether they were there from the beginning.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom
That first green at the Eden is a delight, and from what I found of the course in playing it last March was that there are only one or two others of that calibre. I will try and find a description.

On checking my files I found I had this article on the Eden and Colt's planned changes to the course in 1920 (from Niall Carlton's good hunting) in "Golfing" of February 1920, so I think I have answered my own question as to what work was undertaken on the Eden in 1920. Intersting comments about two holes looking like baths!