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J Sadowsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2011, 09:33:32 AM »
Another course where the clubhouse is about a mile from the start and finish would be Iberostar Golf Club in Playa Paraiso, Mexico.

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2011, 09:42:00 AM »
The 18th at Royal St Georges ends about 150 yards past the clubhouse

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2011, 09:44:40 AM »
Olympic Course at Gold Mountain in Bremerton, WA.  18 is a great short par four- but the hike up the hill to the clubhouse is a bear after walking this hilly course.  Love this course, can't say enough good about it- but I wouldn't mind if they added one of those people movers like I saw on a German course on Geoff Shakelford's site recently.  Seriously.  Richard Choi- what say you?

Originally, that was the 9th hole before they switched the nines.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2011, 10:05:48 AM »
Caves Valley has a decent hike up a hill to the clubhouse after 18.
Mr Hurricane

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2011, 10:14:44 AM »
Th Ocean Course is also a bit of a trek, no?

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2011, 10:15:48 AM »
Frank,

Slumming?  ;D  Great to have you contributing!
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2011, 10:24:14 AM »
Harbour Town's 18th is iconic but ends at the marina, not at the clubhouse..




Wow...that is 375 yards!

I've never really thought about how long that path is back to the clubhouse, mostly, I suspect, because everyone's usually going on about how much fun they just had. It's a neat transition, leaving the wide openness of Calibogue Sound, then heading back into the darker, more intimate confines of the Sea Pines forest.



Dave Herrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2011, 11:11:30 AM »
It's been a while since I was there, but I seem to recall that the courses at Walton Heath finish a fair distance from the clubhouse.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2011, 11:15:05 AM »
While I didn't play Harbour Town, I did make the walk from the 18th green back to the clubhouse.  It is definitely a long walk, and it is probably longer because it winds through housing.  Nevertheless, the 18th green there is a fantastic setting.  You do not feel as if it is in the middle of nowhere being well away from the clubhouse.  The lighthouse is right there, along with the marina that is always bustling with activity.  Furthermore, I cannot imagine a more dramatic setting along the Sound.  I'm a big fan of the setting for that closing hole, and I would not complain about the routing in that case.

I think a first hole that does not start at home is much more irritating than an 18th hole that does not finish at home.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2011, 04:40:53 PM »
I thought of another one:

Kingswood Golf Club (Clayton, GA) has a killer walk from 18 to the clubhouse, that is significantly up hill.  Course allows walking and it is a difficult walk.  I am willing to give this one a pass as the course in in the mountains and there was obvious restrictions when routing the course . . .  I probably should not have walked. ;D

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2011, 04:48:11 PM »
Olympic Course at Gold Mountain in Bremerton, WA.  18 is a great short par four- but the hike up the hill to the clubhouse is a bear after walking this hilly course.  Love this course, can't say enough good about it- but I wouldn't mind if they added one of those people movers like I saw on a German course on Geoff Shakelford's site recently.  Seriously.  Richard Choi- what say you?

I prefer the old layout when they had the 9's flipped. It is a bear to walk up that hill, but it is relatively not that long of a walk...

And it is always awkward when you add a second 18 and still have the 18th finish at the clubhouse.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2011, 05:00:08 PM »
Diamante.  The shuttle picks you up to carry you back up the big hill...

And The Ocean Course at Cabo del Sol - Original routing had a Cypress Pointlike 18th leaving the ocean for a non-descript finisher but intelligence prevailed and the current 13th and 14th were found in a rerouting process. Only the current 14th green site existed in the original routing with all of 13 and the tee shot for 14 left alone.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2011, 05:42:00 PM »
Chambers Bay -- at least as of 12 months ago, you would take a bus down to the first tee and then back up the clubhouse.

Congressional Blue -- pretty close as the crow flies, but because you finish across the lake on what is now the 18th green, you have to get around the lake, and people often take a cart that's waiting there to do so.


Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2011, 06:10:05 PM »

Wade,

I think your question about the architect picking the BEST holes is really the thing that works for me. 

In the case of Kinloch, I chose the 18th hole purely on merit.  Once it was decided to be a private club with caddies, it made the decision even easier.  We then came up with the shuttle idea which works very well for us.  The 19th was not an afterthought or a fill-in.  I convinced them to build the 19th on its merit alone and Vinny Giles (one of the great match players of all time) liked the idea from the beginning and we decided to do it.  Anyway, in my mind, the 18th was always short of the clubhouse for other reasons, but, having the 19th AND caddies AND the shuttle all help what some may say was a less than ideal finish. 

By the way, we did an exercise here at George Golf Design one time to have 18 return to the house by re-routing and reconfiguring the dam.  It may have been two years after we opened.  We did it because ONE member said it was the imperative that we change our finish.  Long story short, once we found a way to do it, the rest of the membership in essence said they would rather lose that member than change what they believed was one of the unique, most talked about finishes in golf.  CASE CLOSED.  Good thread.

Lester

Dave Givnish

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2011, 06:48:43 PM »
Manufacturers in Philly has two 18th greens.  One is up next to the clubhouse at the top of a steep hill.  The other is at the bottom of the hill.  I don't think that they use the upper green very much, so you use a funicular or ride up a steep cart path to get to the clubhouse.  Unusual. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2011, 06:56:17 PM »
Alpine Country Club in NJ, would seem to fit the failure to come home.

At Alpine, an AWT design, the original 1st and 18th were next to the clubhouse, but, there was no returning 9th hole.

With a reordering of play, one must drive a about a mile to the current 1st tee and 18th green.

The club has a far from modest alternate clubhouse at that site.

The regular clubhouse was just rebuilt for about $ 20,000,000 if I remember correctly.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2011, 07:33:46 PM »
Northland Country Club, Duluth. Donald Ross took a look at the sloped property and couldn't see a practical way to have two nines start and end at the bottom of the hill, so he ran the first nine to almost the highest point on the property, and had the back nine return roughly parallel to the front nine.

In the early '20s when Ross did this routing, he was already swimming against the tide, and the members asked him to come back and reconsider. They wanted both nines to start and end at the clubhouse. So Ross returned, looked the place over again and told them, "I was right the first time."

"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2011, 07:42:56 PM »
I would think the golf club at Harbor Shores counts, I remember a decent cart ride back after the 18th hole.


Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2011, 08:58:59 PM »
Some of you seem to say that finding the best 18th hole is more important than making a course walkable.  True?

WW

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2011, 09:14:15 PM »
Matt Ward...Matt Ward, please pick up the white courtesy telephone.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2011, 09:53:48 PM »
Lost Canyons in LA??  I think the 18th on the 'better' course finished a long way away, and was playing away from the clubhouse.  I expect that was the easiest way to get back down after the 17th par 3 along the top of the canyon ridge.

Also MPCC Shore.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2011, 10:23:43 PM »
Colt's La Mer course at Le Touquet on the French channel coast is another example that comes to mind.

It both starts and finishes about a kilometre or so from the clubhouse, on the far side of La Foret course and across a road.

Jim Johnson

Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2011, 10:58:14 PM »
I think a first hole that does not start at home is much more irritating than an 18th hole that does not finish at home.

This is an interesting point. Personally, I feel the opposite, I wouldn't mind a first hole which starts from somewhere away from the clubhouse and have the 18th finish in the vicinity of the clubhouse, I think it's great to relax on the deck or patio with a tall cool one and enjoy the camaraderie of my foursome while catching glimpses of the incoming groups from time to time.

For the archies out there ... if the land dictates that the best way to lay out the course is a toss-up between a course which starts from near the clubhouse but finishes away from it versus a course which starts away from the clubhouse but finishes near the clubhouse, which would you prefer?

And for the non-archies ... which would you prefer?

JJ

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2011, 11:19:37 PM »
Some of you seem to say that finding the best 18th hole is more important than making a course walkable.  True?

WW

I may be in the minority here, but I am for finding the best 18 holes.  I also do not have a problem with the 18th not finishing at the clubhouse if there is good reason (i.e. spectacular greensite like Harbor Town).

Chris

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2011, 11:31:32 PM »
If you are hell bent to have the 18th finish at the clubhouse, the answer is simple. Route the course, then build the clubhouse near the 18th green. Not vice versa.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

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