When holes play different than envisioned

[archie_struthers]

 

It's funny how a hole post construction can play differently than envisioned, and I'm wondering how often this happens to architects. For me it happened on the 11th hole at Twisted Dune, which at 470 yards from the tips . plays really short . This is without a prevailing wind or any real slope to speak of.  When we built this hole I really thought if would take a running mid iron to the green which is down in a dell and sets up for just such a shot. However the ball is going so far that it is often just a 150 yard (or Less) downhill short iron to the green for most good players . The good news is that the average length or shorter hitter gets to play the hole as planned and must judge the bounce and roll on the sedond shot .

 I've talked to the owner Eric Bergstol about building another tee even further back (there is plenty of room)  to let the hole play as I envisioned. He was quite receptive, as you would  expect with Eric.  

Just wondering how often this happens to architects ,and trying to think of some examples.  

[Tom_Doak]

Archie:

There are a lot of big-name architects in the past ten years who never got back to their courses after the Grand Opening to see how they are being played.  Then again, MacKenzie never saw a lot of his, and I don't know if Colt or Ross were much better in that regard.

There are nearly always holes which play longer or shorter than you thought they would.  I was thinking of more profound examples.

For Pacific Dunes:  the second plays a bit shorter than I thought, but the fronting bunker on the right makes it more difficult to get to the hole than I thought.  A lot more people than I expected get suckered into playing left of the green, from where they will inevitably make bogey.  The approach to the third is much more difficult than I thought it would be, I make a mess of that hole routinely even after a good drive.  The eighth hole is a favorite; the left half of the green is much tougher than I originally expected, and is really the making of the hole.  And the thirteenth is easier than I expected, but mostly because they keep the tee markers forward about 95% of the time. 

[Jason Topp]

I saw this with a couple of back tees we added a couple of years ago at our course.  I opposed them both but they built them. 

On one, I had it right - it totally took away any interest off the tee unless one hits it 280 yards.

On the other I was wrong - the hole plays about as well as before and the added 10-15 yards made less difference than I expected.  I am not sure it improves the hole but I also do not think it made it materially worse.

[Dave Falkner]

This is something that has interested me but in a different context

an architect envisions how a hole is to be played and then the "average" golfer with hes 16.8 index shows up and he cant hit a draw where the architect envisions one or he slices it off the tee  

do architects take this into account or does their envisioned strategy only matter when a player can hit it where he wants?

[Tom_Doak]

Dave F:

I have never in my life envisioned a draw from the 16.8 handicapper.  A hook, maybe.    But a fade/slice is 5 times more likely.

Strategy exists on every shot, but requires some degree of execution for it to be relevant.

[jeffwarne]

Dave F:

I have never in my life envisioned a draw from the 16.8 handicapper.  A hook, maybe.    But a fade/slice is 5 times more likely.

Strategy exists on every shot, but requires some degree of execution for it to be relevant.

Tom,
Don't sell the 16.8 short-some are left handed!

[Jeff_Brauer]

I had a guy seriously (I think) tell me I was a genius for opening up the approach shot on the fifth from the parking lot.....I can tell you I had never envisioned that shot.

Back in our K and N days, at Forest Preserve National, we learned a lesson in the fact that the 8th was a sharp dogleg with a pond on the inside.  So sharp, that laying up off the tee with an 8 iron proved to be just as good a shot as playing a full drive.

The second at Champions Run in Omaha was supposed to be a split fw hole, and they reestablished the "safe" fw but the carry is too easy on the challenge fw, and they let natives grow in on the "safe fw" making the only viable option to be the shorter, challenge fw.  They play it as a par 4 in the Cox Championship since no one goes the long way.

From time to time, I have had holes playing uphill and into the wind that play much longer than anticipated, and where fw bunkers could be 240 off the back tee and be in play, whereas the "standard" 285 or whatever was useless.

And, right after pro v 1 was introduced, and it dawned on me that good players really were hitting that damn thing signifigantly further, we simply added some pot bunkers further down the fw if in construction.  The fifth at the Quarry comes to mind.  Pot bunkers are easy for the contractor to shape, and minimize the extra sand the owner needs to pay for.

[Carl Rogers]

Tom and / or Jeff,

Can either of you be enticed to discuss other "surprises"?