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Carl Rogers

Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2011, 04:46:12 PM »
I live close to a course that had a big makeover about 8 years ago.  In this case the wilder (but not real wild really) greens and a few contours near the green complexes on a few holes are a design crutch and a resistance to scoring crutch ... but what to do on uninteresting ground?

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2011, 05:06:21 PM »
I'd much rather play a course where I felt I had a chance when standing on a tee, and then getting "wrecked" on the green...

....over a course where I'm already owned before I even tee it off!  ;)

Kalen-You are so right about that. When you have a forced carry off the tee of 230 and can only keep it in the air for 220 it doesn`t much matter how interesting the green complex is because there is a pretty good chance that you got X.

Ian Andrew

Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2011, 05:09:35 PM »
but the % of golfers for whom that "choice" is available and in any way meaningful is very small -- very small indeed.  

Peter,

I can struggle with the best of them.
But I still start each hole playing for a spot from the tee.
I just get there less than Matt Ward.... :)

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2011, 05:31:03 PM »
I'd much rather play a course where I felt I had a chance when standing on a tee, and then getting "wrecked" on the green...

....over a course where I'm already owned before I even tee it off!  ;)

Kalen-You are so right about that. When you have a forced carry off the tee of 230 and can only keep it in the air for 220 it doesn`t much matter how interesting the green complex is because there is a pretty good chance that you got X.

Or if I have 25 yard wide fairway off the tee with thick trees on either side, (with a 1 in 5 chance that I'll actually hit in the fairway).  Then after a punchout and an approach thats landed in a green side bunker, I'm already staring at double bogey without even "putting" yet.  :'(

I know I know, I need to take JakaB's advice and take a lesson or two!   ;)

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2011, 06:58:02 PM »
design a few (wild greens) to mask otherwise pedestrian or relatively thoughtless architecture?

Willy nilly greens are one thing.
Putting detail design thoughts into a green is thoughtful architecture by definition.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2011, 07:31:51 PM »
I would love someone to try to describe the detail thoughts some gca's put in their putting greens.

Given the infinite number of combos of pin postions and where approach shots might end up, I figure basically gently rolling contours make each putt different.  If I detail a putt that has to just crest a ridge from the left, then it might have to stay short of that ridge from the right, etc.  Is that putt just as good, when taken in the context of the approach shot?

How can you detail a type of putt just in case someone hits it "here" when the flag is "there?"

Overall, I break green contours into their affect on the approach (spikes, tiers, cross or up or down slopes) and the rest of the areas are to set cups in, so they are aroudn 1.5-3%.

Anyone who has ever played my greens knows this, and more than a few call them wild!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2011, 07:41:51 PM »
Peter, Anyone who 4 putts and blames the green, should really be bowling.

Out of position is out of position. If there's no extra challenge or penalty for being there, how many times to you want to play that hole/course again?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2011, 10:01:26 PM »
I would love someone to try to describe the detail thoughts some gca's put in their putting greens.



Jeff:

Pick a number, and pick any course I've ever built, and I'll be glad to describe the detail thoughts for a green.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2011, 11:15:50 PM »
I would love someone to try to describe the detail thoughts some gca's put in their putting greens.



Jeff:

Pick a number, and pick any course I've ever built, and I'll be glad to describe the detail thoughts for a green.

I'll toss one into the ring if I may. RCCC, 15th green.

Jim Nugent

Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2011, 02:17:28 AM »
I'm a big fan of "wild" greens, however you chose to define such.  Is the concept being overused today, however and is there any tendency for an architect to design a few to mask otherwise pedestrian or relatively thoughtless architecture?  Stated another way are we being suckered?


Can you give some examples of this, i.e. courses/architects that use wild greens to mask pedestrian/thoughtless architecture? 

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2011, 07:59:48 AM »
Tom,
I would like to hear about the 1st or 2nd at Sebonack.
Thanks

Andy Troeger

Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2011, 08:26:44 AM »
While I like wild greens, I think this group likes them far more than most golfers. I know many will disagree, but I think golfers hate three-putting almost as much as they do lost balls. They just aren't the guys participating here.

Personally, I don't think wild greens can save an otherwise boring course from tee to green. That might be why I don't get excited by Talking Stick North, where the greens are certainly more interesting than the rest.

Speaking in generalities, I think mediocre ball-strikers that are good putters tend to like wild greens because it gives them a better chance to compete with the guy that hits it better/farther but doesn't do as well around the green. That statement doesn't mean you have to be a double-digit handicap, it just means you think your short game is better than your long game. I'm sure there's somebody out there that's an exception to that rule. When I played more I was a far better ball-striker than a putter, which probably explains why I'm either in the middle or favor good long game features as much or more than great greens. I don't think there's any doubt that the very best courses have both.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2011, 09:56:51 AM »
iF WE ALL LIKED THE SAME THING, WE'D ALL BE AFTER THE SAME GIRL.  Isn't it the variety of the playing venues that differentiates golf from most other sports (skiing and grand prix are a couple of others).  And isn't it the fact that one has to master these varying landscapes with their varying complexities the very thing that keeps people in this sport longer than just about any other (that and it doesn't matter how old our bodies get)?  If courses were standardized, would we become bored?
When it comes to green contours, doesn't the same hold true.  As long as they are a reflection of the rest of the course, I have no problem with anything in the spectrum.
What I do take issue with is 2 items:
1) when "A" is compared to "B" without taking the rest of the course into consideration. By this I refer to the example of #10 at Blue Mound posted earlier. The green exhibits contouring not reflected in the rest of the hole or surrounding area.
2) Out of scale.  Big, wild greens on skinny, tight, flat holes or small flat greens on big, wide undulating fairways.
Examples of good design that don't surcome to this have been referenced in above posts.  Take Harbortown.  The course actually appears to be bigger and wider upon playing it than it does seeing it on TV.  Pete achieved this by actually scaling down everything.  The greens are pretty small, 4-5,000+ sf.  Many look a bit larger because they have little 30' wide tongues that have one pin position, which make the greens appear longer .  Most are only about 45-55' wide whereas your average green is about 60-70'   Due to the limited size, not a lot of contouring or slope is practical.  The skinny fairways hide the fact that the golf corridors are again very narrow and there are houses closer tha we would see OB today.  The limited cleaing of the big trees make those houses feel further away than they really are.
I guess the flip side of this is something like ANGC where the site has big undulating hills and valleys.  The greens are big and thus have the room to emmulate those big slopes.  Imagine how out-of-place Harbortown's greens would be on NGC or vice-versa.
Coasting is a downhill process

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2011, 10:07:18 AM »
I'm a big fan of "wild" greens, however you chose to define such.  Is the concept being overused today, however and is there any tendency for an architect to design a few to mask otherwise pedestrian or relatively thoughtless architecture?  Stated another way are we being suckered?


Can you give some examples of this, i.e. courses/architects that use wild greens to mask pedestrian/thoughtless architecture? 

Fair question.  Engh's course at Reynolds Plantation off the top of my head.  I've got a couple of others in mind but don't care to be villified on Good Friday.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2011, 10:11:48 AM »
Mike,

Then it would be "not very good Friday?"

Back to your original question, as to whether wild greens are over used.....

Wouldn't the typical response be that greens are getting flatter all the time because of green speeds?  What courses were you thinking of in particular?  Only those of a few top gca's?  IMHO, its a generalization, not unlike the one that says 60's design has all elevated greens with front bunkers, because we saw some RTJ courses with those features on TV.

Of course, with greater green speeds, even greens designed five years ago can be a bit wilder than originally intended.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2011, 10:45:03 AM »
So Jeff, wouldn't it be safe to say that anyone emmulating yester-years Wild greens are really way beyond the design intent of those greens simply due to the green speeds?  Taken a step further, do you know of any studies that have been able to quantify the relationship between an increase in green speed of X for a decrease in grass height of Y? With that information, one could calculate what todays green slopes would have to be to equal those of yester-year.  Take 16 at Pasatiempo for instance. The greenspeed being mowed today was not in Mac's original design intent.  So, if one were to build a copy today to capture Mac's original design intent, how much flatter would the slopes have to be?  And, after building it to perfection, how would it be accepted by the "purists"? Hmmm....
Coasting is a downhill process

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2011, 10:56:57 AM »
Tim,

Check the ASGCA website for Jerry Lemon's study on green speeds. Of course, you still need to extrapolate what the GA guys might have done. Just on the edge?  Moderate slopes for their green speeds?

Given greens that fast hadn't been invented yet, although some baked summer greens probably existed at times, you wonder if  they could have envisoned a fast putt just on the edge of "de-greening" speed?

Did they consider summer speed in grading greens at 6% or something typical in those days?  Perry Dye told me he had measured many classic Redan's and they had 12% slopes to the back left!  In summer, was that worse than Shinny at the US Open a few years back?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2011, 11:15:56 AM »
Jeff, I guess you'ld have to take into account some other non-quantifiable aspects like irrigation practices (night waterman vs computerized control), more influence from grain, balls that didn't spin like todays, etc.  Pobably can't be done.

I was just thinking how a purest would react if one was able to take it all into account and build a rendition today that closely emmulated one from the 20's.  What would they say? How would they react?  Boring? Too flat? Not "fun"?

Tuthill used to say that the definition of a good green was one that was playable for the memebers at one height and a test for the pros at another height.  Too bad so many club's have a handful of scratch golfers that want 11+ everyday and what effect that has on what architects can do and no be lynched by the other 99% of the memebers.

Personally, I think that being able to read a green is a skill that should be just as important as executing a shot. The more sutile the contours, the harder it is to be confident in your read.  The more undulating, the more the read is telegraphed.  So, perhaps some who like the more wild greens like them because they are easier to read.  Also, the wild slopes tend to contain low shots better than flatter greens.
Coasting is a downhill process

Tom ORourke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2011, 11:31:33 AM »
I was a member at a course with many greens with multiple levels. There were certain pin positions where you were in better shape misisng the green on the short side rather than bailing out to the middle of the green to another level. I like that. I am not sure of what constitutes "wild", but levels, slopes, and speed make your approach shot more interesting, rather than just safely playing to the center of the green and take one or two putts. It can make an average course better. Maybe worse if done poorly, but I think it identifies the better iron player, not just the better putter. 

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2011, 02:18:35 PM »
I can't think of many examples of bland tee to green courses with "wild greens."  Is this actually a trend?  The courses I've played that have wild greens tend to fall into two camps:  (1) generally minimalist courses (e.g., Doak) where significant contour exists throughout the course, not just on the greens; and (2) highly manufactured courses (e.g., Engh) where, again, the "wild" elements are seen not just on the greens.  More examples may be needed please. 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2011, 02:37:07 PM »
After 45 replies have we figured out if its a crutch yet?

I personally vote no. 

I think any wild green is a good one in my book whether its found on a Doak or an Engh. I've only ever putted on one green where I thought it could be over the top, but alas it wasn't a "real" green.  It was the putting green next to the 1st tee at Pacific Dunes.

Jim Nugent

Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2011, 03:27:55 PM »
Kalen, we've heard such few examples, it comes across to me as a non-issue.  Bogey is following the philosophy (?) that discretion is the better part of valor, though. 

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2011, 03:31:40 PM »
Jim, if you only knew. ;)

Mike

« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 03:51:52 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2011, 01:05:16 PM »
Mike:

I can see how some would think a wild green can be a crutch ... and for some architects, I'm sure it is.

In fact, the first wild green I built might be an example of that; it was the fifth at Riverdale Dunes in Colorado.  I was working for Perry Dye at the time, and it was really my first chance to shape greens.  We were building them in order, and the first few greens are pretty tame, in part because the starting holes are pretty long.  After I'd done the fifth, Perry thought it was too tame, and said we needed to build a really wild green to make up for the first few.  I was kind of mad about that, so I went and built the current version, and after that things got pretty wild for the rest of the course!  (And the rest of my career.)

What I enjoy about wild greens is that they are seldom similar from one to the next, if they are defined by internal contours.  The one sort of wild green I really don't like is a tiered green with too much elevation between the tiers ... five feet or more.  They just get to a point where even the best putter in the world can't judge the speed right going up a tier that high.  I don't mind that on the 14th at Augusta, because you don't HAVE to putt it up the false front, but a tier like that in the middle of a green is silly, because the hole is usually quite boring with the hole on the lower level.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Wild Greens - The Architect's Crutch?
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2011, 01:31:34 PM »
I was asked about two specific greens:  the 15th at Rock Creek, and the 1st at Sebonack.  [Actually, also the 2nd at Sebonack, but that was really all Brian Schneider's idea -- I just tried to tone it down enough so it would work!]  Those are great examples because both greens are very close to the edge of being unfair, and probably over the line for some people.

The 15th at Rock Creek is a very short par-4 playing downhill to a green site that had a high shoulder on the left, and a rock outcropping on the right that would hide some of the right-hand side of the green.  Trying to use both features for hole locations meant that there would be a substantial tier from left to right through the middle of the green -- in many cases, that's the real origin of a severe green, when you are trying to incorporate two different elements that it's hard to fit together.

We intended the hole to be driveable some of the time, but the upper-left section was perfectly defended by a slope made for bunkering in front.  So, we left an entrance to the left where you could drive the green but you'd have to putt up the slope if the flag was to the left, and we tried to bank up the left half so that a great shot from the tee had a slim chance of holding the green if it landed just in the front.  [If not, it's through the green into a deep rear bunker, so it's very risky to try to drive it onto that portion.]  As it happened, I played in the Renaissance Cup with an excellent player who tried to pull off that shot with a 4-wood -- I had moved the tees up so people would try it -- and his shot was ALMOST perfect but just leaked off the tier and down into the lower-right portion of the green.  Instead of having a putt for eagle, he three-putted for par, and he was pissed -- but it was the same contour which we'd built to try and hold his tee shot on the top slope, that made it difficult for him to lag his first putt close to the hole.


The first green at Sebonack is a different story.  We must have built five versions of this green.  When I had explored the pros and cons of working alongside Mr. Nicklaus, a friend told me that very often when they did a walk-through, they got upset about the first hole they would look at, and he eventually figured out it was just a tactic to put everyone on the defensive.  Well, every time he'd get to Sebonack, we'd start out on the first hole, and every time, the green would suck, no matter which of my guys had tried to build it.

Eventually, we concluded that we had to straighten the hole, because with the cottages to the left and the boundary too close on the right, we couldn't really encourage people to play to either side.  Jack was not happy about that at all, and on one visit he said he thought it was going to be a "zero" hole because there was nothing to work with.  It was at that point I determined to give the green a try myself.  And with "strategy" restricted by the boundary issues on both sides, I tried to come up with a green that was about shotmaking, where a flip wedge from 50 or 100 yards was a potentially dangerous shot and you might want to try something lower to the ground.  So, the main part of the green is tucked between a steep ridge in front and the cliff over the back -- where you afraid a conventional approach might hit on the downslope of the ridge and go over and out.  And the other most difficult hole location is right in the middle, a shallow plateau where the ridge flattens out into the green, but it's not deep enough that you can be sure of hitting it and holding it.  You can play a normal pitch to the back left part of the green, but if you do that you are foregoing any chance of a three, and maybe even risking a three-putt.

All of that may be too severe for some people, but at least Jack doesn't think it's a "zero" hole anymore.

Funnily enough, an old friend of mine in the business came up there just after we'd finished the green, and offered to demo his never computer system that takes in the contours and speed of the green and computes what line you need to make the putt -- the one they use on TV now.  His idea was that he could show us what were "fair" hole locations on the greens, where someone could theoretically make a putt from any angle, and he demonstrated the concept by using the first green at Sebonack.  And most of the diagram was black -- i.e., unfair -- including that center hole location, because it was impossible to hole a putt from the back right to there.  The thing is, I don't think that's unfair at all.  To me, it would only be unfair if you couldn't two-putt the hole.