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Mark McKeever

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2011, 08:09:30 AM »
Side note, the tree removal on 17 turned out very well.   Gotta love that stone wall now in plain view!!!

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2011, 08:39:11 AM »
Greg, I don't want to speak for Padraig but I suspect that the sand will be permitted to weather.
We did a total bunker rebuild a few years ago and the sand was pretty stark when spread but ultimately it has weathered nicely and taken on a darker tone.

Benny Hillard

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2011, 09:38:04 AM »
I wish I could say I like the style, but I don't. They all look very similar. Are there any that exhibit some individuality and deviate from the cookie cutter style? It's all very clumpy and wavey.

I think what displeases my eye is the center tongue that runs down (or even below fairway level?) into the bunker and gives the impression that there are two small bunkers instead of one larger one. The bunkers on the 3rd look more appealing to me; perhaps it's because I can see more sand. Was that photo taken from closer range?

I walked around cork last week and to be honest I didn't mind them too much. The greenside bunkers looked a lot better than the fairway bunkering.
I agree that the scale was a little too consistant throughout the site, but i was wondering if this style would work on larger and smaller scales.
As to Donal's comment about the tonue's ipping below the fairway surface, A lot of the courses on the sandbelt feature this deceptive techinique including Royal West.

I still really enjoy my visit to cork and wished I could have played. I think time will tell in regard to how the members respond. From what I heard a lot were not happy with the placement which I would regard as a good sign.

Benny

Tim Nugent

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2011, 12:33:49 PM »
What would be interesting is knowing what directives the architects were given and how much artistic license they had.  Since Mr. Thompson reports that this is a very similar look to a recent Canadian effort by the same firm, did the Club say "we want what you did there", or did the architects just do a "Play it again Sam"?

It would seem that a majority here have a less than favorable opinion of the work - to them, they just don't "feel" right.  But no one has hit upon the cause.  Scale, tongues and backing mounding that doesn't reflect the remaining terrain are given.  What would probably help all this would be some excavation prior to the bunker.

If you look again at the pictures - especially the fairway bunkers, you will notice that the foreground has a straight horizon line prior to the bunker.  I would guess the bunkers are bigger and deeper (just by the amount of spoils that was used to create the backing chocolate drop mounds) but that horizon line limits the view of both the horizontal and verticle depth of the bunkers. Plus, with some undulating excavated foreground, not only would the vision of both be increased, but the backing mounds wouldn't look as out of place.

Bunker renovation is a trickier propositiion than most assume. Existing drainage and irrigation often limits what can be done.  Importing and exporting materials can be very damaging to none work areas and rarely does a course want to close to do the work so the contractor is given the crappiest weather to work in. As they say in the business - it's tough to shape mud!
Coasting is a downhill process

Kalen Braley

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2011, 12:45:24 PM »


It would seem that a majority here have a less than favorable opinion of the work - to them, they just don't "feel" right.  But no one has hit upon the cause. 


Tim,

I already mentioned in a previous post what the "cause" is IMO.  Look at my prior post and it spells it out.

Niall C

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2011, 01:01:18 PM »
alpinisation anyone ?

I don't mind the frilly ragged edge look but looking purely from the photos here (I haven't been to Cork) its a ham fisted effort. I suspect I might get pelters for stating that so strongly but its not the concept I have a problem with, its the follow through.

Niall

Mike Hendren

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2011, 02:50:07 PM »
I remind myself that newly rebuilt bunkers always appear rather stark and might soften over time.  That said, my greatest fear is that I wake up one morning and someone has constructed a frilly brunker in my front yard that I have to maintain every single day. 

This too shall pass.

Brushy
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Padraig Dooley

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2011, 05:06:59 PM »
It seems most of the comments are negative about the look, the comments in the club are mainly about the added difficulty and increased maintenance. Most in the club are happy with the look.

Kalen's comment about the sizes being too similar, the sizes are similar to what they were with no bunker increasing or decreasing too dramatically in size.

Tim's comment about excavating the foreground of the bunkers is a valid point but there is quite a bit of rock near the surface and Marc Westenborg felt it would be easier to increase the height of the greenside mound work rather than have to deal with too much rock.

I'll post a few more pictures to see if they give a different perspective.

There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Padraig Dooley

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2011, 05:21:53 PM »
12th green, just to illustrate some of the rock that's near the surface



4th





16th





7th







There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Matthew Mollica

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2011, 11:15:21 PM »
These pics just brought a tear to me eye . In a bad way . My opinion and my humble means nothing opinion they are awful FOR that golf course. Granted it's just pictures and it might look better on the ground but to me they so do not fit the place or the location.

+1

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Paul_Turner

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2011, 06:26:50 AM »
Ironically, I think the work most resembles Martin Hawree's grandfather's work (Fred).

 It does look like the work at Toronto, particularly the mounding at Toronto's 15th.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Sean_A

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2011, 07:03:43 PM »
These bunkers most certainly cry out Dr Mac to me before he left England.  Very intricate pop up mounding housing sand.  Having seen this style elsewhere my guess is they look better than indicated in the pix.  The one issue is similar sizing.  In some cases I would rather see some bigger bunkers utilized rather than several small bunkers. 

Some similar style new bunker work by Hawtree - though I think this looks better.




Another take on the same theme


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2011, 06:54:04 AM »
Sean
What course are these photos from?

Here are some of Mackenzie's bunkers in the UK before he left to live in the US. Personally I can't see much if any similarity with the new ones at Cork. I think the style picked by Hawtree is a pastiche and has little basis in historical fact.

Headingley 16


Royal Melbourne 5 West - built under Mackenzie's supervision while in Melbourne in 1926


Hadley Wood 11


Hadley Wood17


Weston-super-Mare


Troon Portland 6


London Flying Club


Sean_A

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2011, 07:06:56 AM »
Neil

I disagree and think the general pop up style is quite evident in the Troon pix and the London Flying club (although I hadn't seen that pic before).  I wish I could recall where I saw more of these pop up style of Dr Mac's.  There is at least one other course I saw this.  By pop up I mean bunkers which rise out of flat terrain - obvious little attempt to blend into the landscape.  How they are shaped etc is secondary to the overall style.   

The pix of mine are not Dr Mac bunkers.  The first is Broadway, a course which Dr Mac did work on, but I am not sure his bunkers (if he did bunker work) looked like this.  I think this is a trial run by Hawtree as only one hole at Broadway uses this style.  

The second photo is Huntercombe, a more basic take on the pop up style, but the essentially the same thing.


Ciao
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 07:11:31 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ian Andrew

Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2011, 07:57:14 AM »
I had an interesting conversation a couple of years ago about designing with plans and designing on the fly in the field. There were lots of advantages and disadvantages to both techniques and it left me wondering about whether a combination was essential.

One of the comments that I brought up was variation of scale. I think it’s really easy for the site architect and shaper to work in a similar scale without realizing it until the end. I think unless you step back, or more importantly leave that hole and keep a broader view, you can get trapped to a scale.

I always walk when I arrive even if it’s an existing course. Part of the reason I like to do this is it’s a way to keep collecting the overall context of the course. In renovation work I find this contextualization important, whether to continue a theme or make sure I have more variation to hide the theme.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2011, 08:15:31 AM »
Sean
While there are elements of "pop up" as you describe it in some of the bunkers at Troon and London Flying Club it is not in my view a defining feature of Mackenzie's bunkering. Where he had a flat site I agree he often built up the backs of the bunkers to make them visible but this is hardly unique to him. Here are a few more pics, and I have plenty more!

London Flying Club - 1st green, not a pop up in sight!


Three shots of Morecambe, which was a new Mac course from 1923





Sean_A

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2011, 08:29:03 AM »
Neil

Yes, I agree that pop ups are not a defining style nor unique for Dr Mac.  Though I am not sure he had a defining style.  Dr Mac seemed willing to experiment with all sorts of styles and quantities.  I am hard pressed to think of a more diversified archie in terms of bunkers from Dr Mac's his era. 

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2011, 08:35:30 AM »
Sean
Agree with what you say there. He did seem willing to experiment with different bunker styles and you even see different styles on different holes on the same course. Perhaps an influence from the different contractors and foremen who built his courses too. If there is a tendency towards pop up or pushed up bunkering for Mac it is far more likely to come pre WW1 in some of his early courses. The period of Cork GC does not fit into this early pre-war genre.

Sean_A

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2011, 08:46:38 AM »
Neil

Yes, I think pre WWI is much more likely for pop ups as folks didn't quite know how to get sand on inland courses very well until the likes of Colt came along.  To some degree, flat site bunkering is still an aesthetic issue, but I think Simpson could deal with this very, very well. 

I am not suggesting Cork was a pop up bunker course.  I would rather suspect it was not, but I think there is lineage of pop ups to look back to which is still relevant today.  You probably look at the issue more from a restoration aspect than I do.  I am much more concerned if the bunkering works strategically and from a maintenance perspective regardless of what Dr Mac did or might have redone given the chance.  I find it interesting that Padraig notes the style isn't a real issue and that placement is more of a concern.  Sounds like a membership that is getting down to what os really important.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2011, 09:21:04 AM »
Sean, Neil,

When I first saw the pics, it reminded me also of some pre-WW1 MacKenzie raised / pop-up bunkers such as shown in his Golf Architecture book... Huddersfield if I recall (although different in style to the Huddersfield photo Neil posted above)

Padraig Dooley

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2011, 09:42:33 AM »
Neil, here are a couple of early Cork pictures.

18th 1927, Dr Mac came in 1924 and 25



14th in the late 40's



There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Paul_Turner

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2011, 11:11:00 AM »
Sean, Neil,

When I first saw the pics, it reminded me also of some pre-WW1 MacKenzie raised / pop-up bunkers such as shown in his Golf Architecture book... Huddersfield if I recall (although different in style to the Huddersfield photo Neil posted above)

Ally

You are right.  Of Mackenzie's work these bunkers show most resemblance to some of his very early work in Yorkshire.  I recall some of the pics are in "Some Essays..." .  Large pushed up mounds with sandy faces. .

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37455.0.html
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 11:13:48 AM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2011, 05:45:49 PM »
Have just uploaded some of my pre WW1 pics of Mac bunkering. Some have similarities with what has been done at Cork, some not. But I don't see any evidence for the multiple small mounds as behind the Cork bunkers though. And as Cork was done in 1923 I think Hawtrees have drawn a very long bow though.

Alwoodley Hole 1


Alwoodley Hole 18


Alwoodley Hole 6 - here we see first evidence of what Sean described as "pop ups"


Headingley Hole 2 - rather crude looking compared to Alwoodley


Fulwell Hole 14 - possibly the best match to what was done at Cork. Sorry photo is so small.

Ulrich Mayring

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club
« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2016, 07:15:06 PM »
I wasn't aware of this thread or the bunkering controversy as such when I played Cork and made up my mind about the bunkers. Since a few folks expressed the opinion that those bunkers might look different after a grow-in period, I decided to show three of my pictures, now five years on from the original discussion:


3rd green


Par 3 7th


Fairway bunkers at 15

I thought immediately "MacKenzie" when I laid my eyes on the course for the first time and before knowing that the bunkers were actually not his. He worked in a number of different styles, but the one thing that his bunkers always seem to do is assert themselves. MacKenzie's bunkering is often dominant and has a certain "look at me" flair. Those bunkers pay tribute to that.

I can understand that people cry "restore, don't invent" and I would obviously prefer original MacKenzie bunkers, no matter how they actually looked. But if that can't be determined historically, then these "inspired by" bunkers do the job.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Bunkers at Cork Golf Club New
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2016, 03:38:17 AM »
I was fortunate enough to grow up with the chance to play many MacKenzie courses and the bunkering styles do vary. I loved the photo of the 16th at Headingly where the green looks identical today though the bunkers have changes and some disappeared. I wonder how many Mackenzie fans have bothered to play this course whilst visiting the eye candy big name of Alwoodley? Yes, Alwoodley is perhaps his greatest course in the UK but it is courses such as Headingly that give you an insight into the genius of the man.


Cork looks like a good course.


Jon
« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 11:46:50 AM by Jon Wiggett »