[Adrian_Stiff]

David - I still think the way golf is relative to the economy, housing and the over supply, you have to be pretty crazy to be trying to enter this business at this moment in time. NEW GOLF COURSES have so many things against them at the moment. There is no evidence of a 4 or 5 year recovery. You have the situation that many second home owners are looking to get out as soon as the market bounces a bit, thats not good for golf.

You are going to have a situation where some great architects not just good ones or beginners are not going to work. If you want to work in golf course architecture ...... LEARN MANDARIN AND HOW TO DRIVE A D5

[David_Elvins]

David - I still think the way golf is relative to the economy, housing and the over supply, you have to be pretty crazy to be trying to enter this business at this moment in time.

No doubt. The only point I was making was regard to the risk of predicting at the start of a 4-6 year univesity course, what the market will be like when you finish.  I think you are right in general though, whilst their might be some recovery, the last 20 years was a genuine boom that won't be repeated for some time. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

David - I think too many people learn irrevelevant stuff that is never gonna get used generally, they just take 3 years off learn something then get a bar job. The young people should be learning relevant stuff, anyone studying Russian 10-15 years ago should be earning well now, probably these more unusual Eastern languages make sense to be learning now, but a wannabe GCA might read this and turn his nose up. You need an edge and an angle and you need to appeal to a firm that you got talents and multi talents that someone else does not have. I cant drive a blade or shape myself but I wished I learned because, I would like to have been able to quote a design and shape price.
Whilst everything is always uncertain, training courses into dying - ailing industrys does not comprehend common senses and the one thing the world does not need at the moment is more golf course architects. Students can decide for themselves but the problem with young people is they can be guided by bright lights and not common sense and they use words like dreams and goals to justify their 1 in 1000 shot. If it can be coupled with a fall back position into golf course maintenance then it makes more sense but you you need some sort of way to diversify a bit if there is no GCA position.

[Mike_Young]

David - I still think the way golf is relative to the economy, housing and the over supply, you have to be pretty crazy to be trying to enter this business at this moment in time.

No doubt. The only point I was making was regard to the risk of predicting at the start of a 4-6 year univesity course, what the market will be like when you finish.  I think you are right in general though, whilst their might be some recovery, the last 20 years was a genuine boom that won't be repeated for some time. 

David,
Agree..that is why college needs to stick to liberal arts for the majority of people....I live in a college town and can assure you that most of the kids coming out of business school have no clue as to the business world....and I think most forget but here is no curriculum for Golf course design....I think the top architect in the world right now did not even go to college....Landscape architecture is not a guarantee by any means of being a better golf architect.....cheers

[David Harshbarger]

Mike, what really irks me is money grubbing Universities that are still churning out LA's that want to be GCA's with ZERO hope of getting "Entry Level" positions.  Hell, I'd bet I could hire a dozen guys with double-digit years of experience tomorrow (if there was the work).  Couple this with all the guys in Turf school wanting to be supers. At least some of those will get $12/hr asst. jobs as a few of the old timers retire/die and those guys who have been assts for a decade finally get the big job.

Unfortunately no one is telling them the truth in school and by the time they are up to their eyeballs in sudent loans, it's too late.  But hey, those Profs still have their tenure job!

Tim, I can't speak to the professors at other universities, but mine here at VT have been MORE than open with me about the prospects of finding work (or not) in the GCA market once I graduate next year, and a lot of the architects I have spoken to have given me a similar story.  A lot more have told me if I want it bad enough and am persistent enough, I can get there...one day.  I may not be the lead architect on a project anytime soon, but I believe that there are opportunities out there for LAR grads interested in GCA to improve their skills and make themselves more attractive to the firms that do have work.  That's the path I will take if I must because this is the field I want to work in.  Anybody coming out of school right now expecting opportunities to exist like they did 5, 10, or 20 years ago has been living with blinders on, IMO.  And that is not just for GCA, but for landscape architecture, architecture, building construction, etc. etc.

Brian,

There's a lot of sound advice here, and if you choose to pursue a career in what is a niche of a niche industry that is in a downturn, you are sailing into stiff winds.  Even if it is your dream, and you are willing to work hard, that may not be enough.  If you won't be dissuaded, get a plan.  Target China, or East Europe, say. Load up on language courses and cultural studies.  Reach out to the players where you plan to go and convince them you are serious, and work your tail off to make it happen.

If you choose to target China, keep in mind Americans who can make their way in China are valuable in many markets, and will be for some time.  China is, after all, the ascendant super power.

This is the time to follow that dream.

[Don_Mahaffey]

It is my belief that if you go into the golf business, its best that you do it because you love the game.  So, even if your trained to "design", be willing to make a living operating a course, or maintaining a course, or serving golfers directly, and maybe even building a course once in a while. If things crank back up, maybe you'll be fortunate enough to make a living in your specialization, but if not, feel blessed you can make ends meet while working in a business that is about playing a game.

[Brian Ross]

Brian,

There's a lot of sound advice here, and if you choose to pursue a career in what is a niche of a niche industry that is in a downturn, you are sailing into stiff winds.  Even if it is your dream, and you are willing to work hard, that may not be enough.  If you won't be dissuaded, get a plan.  Target China, or East Europe, say. Load up on language courses and cultural studies.  Reach out to the players where you plan to go and convince them you are serious, and work your tail off to make it happen.

If you choose to target China, keep in mind Americans who can make their way in China are valuable in many markets, and will be for some time.  China is, after all, the ascendant super power.

This is the time to follow that dream.

David,

I have never turned down advice from anyone whom I consider knowledgeable on a matter and I respect the views of those whom I may not completely agree with.  I appreciate your advice as well.  I am pretty good in German, so-so in Spanish and recently began attempting (it is hard!) to learn Mandarin.  I have quite a bit of experience on the business/service side of golf and am going to be getting my feet wet working on a renovation project in South Carolina this summer. 

The point I was trying to make earlier is that there are multiple avenues one can take to "make it" or "get there" in my opinion.  I realize that the days of graduating and jumping directly into a design associate position are gone, but that doesn't mean you can't find another route.  I want to be able to build a course too so that's what I'm going to learn to do this summer, and will continue down that route once I graduate if I see an opening there.  If I have to fall back on Landscape Architecture for awhile, that's still an option.

But again, I appreciate the advice and am always interested to hear the opinions of others. 

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