[Gary Daughters]

When I first played this hole the other day, I considered it a prescription for leaving a rotten taste in a tired golfer's mouth.  Two of the three guys I played with found water with their approach shots.  Both, however, had chosen the easy way off the tee, which is to the right.  A bolder stroke off the tee brings the first pond into play but sets up a much more doable approach or an easy bailout left.  From there, however, the contour of the green made for a very difficult up and down to the day's pin location.  This is a Joe Lee design that appears to have been worked over pretty good.  Thoughts?

[Mac Plumart]

Judging by that picture, I'd say it is not a good hole, period.  But I am not a fan of water.  Throw in two water hazards, a narrow fairway, (what appears to be) cart paths in the bail out areas, and you get a thumbs down in my book.  But, again, that is just a judgement based on a picture from a guy with a bias against water hazards.

[Jim Jackson]

Looks climactic to me, perhaps an ok 18th that would work at current yardage but no fun if stretched out much farther.  My only beef is with the bunkering; would prefer getting rid of the right-sided fairway bunkers and, better yet, the bunker short left of the green to allow your partners to run the ball up or have a decent chance at chipping up for par.

[Matt Day]

I'd lose the two fairway bunkers, the bale our right still has the harder second shot

[Greg Chambers]

The hole looks absolutely terrible, whether it's a closer or in the middle of the round or at the beginning.  Water hazards all around, bunkers placed in spots where one would hit a shot to avoid the water...just a bad hole.

[Matthew Rose]

I wouldn't like it.

It could be a good hole as a par-five.... I'd made it wider though, and leave more buffer between the ponds so that only one is in play on each shot.

Pete Dye was a fan of the counter-balanced hazards (draw off the tee, fade on your approach).

[Alex Miller]

I wouldn't like it.

It could be a good hole as a par-five.... I'd made it wider though, and leave more buffer between the ponds so that only one is in play on each shot.

Pete Dye was a fan of the counter-balanced hazards (draw off the tee, fade on your approach).

Right you are, Matthew! It is a Pete Dye par 5 already, the 5th at the Stadium course at PGA West.

Courtesy of Mike Nuzzo's website (it should be fairly obvious which hole it is):

[Ronald Montesano]

Got you beat...here is a real winner at one of my favorite local tracks:



The beauty of this one is, it has the "X Factor" that all the cool-kid teaching pros are talking about...notice how the creek and the cart path intersect then bifurcate, to form the X? How cool is this?  Get me some dynamite, gophers!

[Kirk Gill]

Most times an aerial view doesn't tell the whole story, but this doesn't look like a hole I'd want as a finisher. It just demands execution, and doesn't seem to offer choices or strategy. There's a place for holes like this, I guess, but if you're specifically asking about it as a finishing hole, I'd rather end a round with a chance at birdie then a chance at triple bogey.

[Tim Martin]

I can`t imagine why any of the bunkers are required. Isn`t the hole penal enough? They should install a couple of life guard towers up by the green to save the majority of golfers who are ready to drown themselves. After players walk off the green they should be required to hand over their belts and shoelaces as well.

[Mark McKeever]

I would remove the right fairway bunkers and extend the fairway.  Let the golfer have a bail out area off the tee, but as a result have a harder second shot.

Mark

[John Kavanaugh]

Considering that I play most of my golf with people who I am giving strokes I prefer a finisher like this.  It looks like an easy enough driver/8iron par for me and a double for them.  I like it.

There are no bad holes, only bad golfers.

And what is this crap about a tired golfer.  It is still golf isn't it?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sometimes holes like this are required by the site, although I don't know this to be the case. Also, Joe Lee courses in general aren't known as particularly difficult, and in Ron Whitten's book about Joe Lee, the Z shape hole was considered one of his signature designs.

As to this particular hole, I don't mind the target bunkers off the tee, but would remove the front left bunker on the green, or at least widen the bail out approach just in front.  It looks as if he has narrowed the bail out.

[Gary Daughters]

The course as a whole is over bunkered.  Many appear to have been added along the way.

[Ronald Montesano]

My contribution is #18 at Glen Oak, an RTJ Senior design. If I could eliminate the three bunkers up the left in the landing/layup area and extend the fairway, I'd be thrilled. Put some fairway and some grass bunkers there and I'm sold.

[Terry Lavin]

It would be a good finishing hole on a course named, "Pain and Suffering National Golf Club".

[Kalen Braley]

I was just going to say, I bet the PGA tour muckety mucks and Peter Kostis would love a ball buster like this for their closer.  It reminds me of 18 at the National where they played a month ago.

[J Sadowsky]

Sometimes holes like this are required by the site, although I don't know this to be the case. Also, Joe Lee courses in general aren't known as particularly difficult, and in Ron Whitten's book about Joe Lee, the Z shape hole was considered one of his signature designs.

As to this particular hole, I don't mind the target bunkers off the tee, but would remove the front left bunker on the green, or at least widen the bail out approach just in front.  It looks as if he has narrowed the bail out.

One of the most difficult courses I've ever played was Joe Lee's Palisades Golf Club, in Clermont, FL.  It was also one of the worst courses I've ever played (narrow fairways with brutal, lose-your-ball rough, water everywhere, no strategy, no angles to the green that aren't blocked by trees or houses on high-degree doglegs, etc.).

[MikeJones]

My 2 minute remodel

[David Kelly]

My 2 minute remodel

Hey, congratulations, you just built a Schmidt-Curley finishing hole.

[Tim Martin]

My 2 minute remodel

Mike-I like the changes. I might keep the greenside bunker and remove the other one closer to the fairway. It would give the player another option with a short approach left to use the ground to get up and down for par. Regardless it is far superior to the original.

[J_ Crisham]

Looks pretty much like 18 at Bay Hill in Mike's version.
                                             Jack

[Don Hyslop]

There is no doubt, in my opinion, that Mike's remodel is far superior to the original. I also would like it better if the bunker to the left front of the green were removed.

[Bill_McBride]

For the Minnesota guys, that hole from the opening post reminds me of I think #17 at Edinburgh USA outside Minneapolis, no?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It does not look like a good closing hole. A small pond you can clear to make for a shorter second to a well defended green could be good. Two ponds and frankly a great with no advantages of angle do nothing for me.

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