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Andrew Lewis

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #75 on: April 20, 2011, 08:24:13 AM »
I'd submit #4 from NLE High Pointe.  Here are a few photos, courtesy of the Tim Bert Archive:

View from the tee



Closer look



From green looking back


Howard Riefs

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #76 on: April 20, 2011, 11:42:37 AM »
Thatta boy, Howard!

Ditto, Way to get off the deck Howard!


Thanks, Bill.

Raynor made Shoreacres chock full of template holes. It will be easy to go back to the well for future THM nominations.


No doubt about it! I am still a little mad at my son for breaking up with a girl whose father belongs to Shoreacres...My son did get to play it, so I had to give him a crash course on Raynor and the templates before he got on the plane! :) (He loved it!)
Glad your son got to play Shoreacres.  But moving forward, he should screen all future girlfriends with the all-important: "What golf club does your family belong to?"
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 11:45:09 AM by Howard Riefs »
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Brad LeClair

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #77 on: April 20, 2011, 01:04:47 PM »
I second Matt Ward's nomination of Somerset Hills' fantastic redan:



Also really enjoyed the one at Shinny:


« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 01:16:45 PM by Brad LeClair »

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #78 on: April 20, 2011, 01:07:32 PM »
Here’s my nomination:


I wasn’t supposed to take pics so I’ll keep names out of it. Hopefully some of you have played it and will recognize it.

For all the formalists out there, I know, it doesn’t tick all the boxes of a classic Redan. For one thing, the front right bunker is grass not sand (always has been). Don’t be in that bunker and don’t be long.

The other interesting thing is how it’s definitely an uphill shot but the land sort of rises up to the green -- the “walkthrough gap” is a pretty cool homage to the way you walk up to N Berwick’s green. (The pic is a little deceiving: the green doesn’t tilt toward you but goes from front right to back left, just like the original. Camouflage!)

PS Took this pic on the day of a “capture the flag” competition -- obviously I was too late. Aim for the middle!

J Sadowsky

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #79 on: April 20, 2011, 02:10:56 PM »
I think it's been mentioned before, but here's #12 at Old MacDonald (courtesy this website)


Joe Bausch

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« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 11:40:25 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2011, 03:27:49 PM »
Wow, the redan at Somerset looks great.  Methinks a high seed is in order.

Thanks for posting the picture, Joe. 

Does the bunker to the right of the green actually get green high or is it short of the front of the green?

Mark McKeever

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2011, 03:40:54 PM »
Looking at the slope of the green in that picture of Somerset Hills, It seems like anything on the green would roll off the back left.  Very wild looking!

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Joe Bausch

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2011, 03:44:41 PM »
Does the bunker to the right of the green actually get green high or is it short of the front of the green?

The latter.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Brad LeClair

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2011, 04:07:26 PM »
Looking at the slope of the green in that picture of Somerset Hills, It seems like anything on the green would roll off the back left.  Very wild looking!

Mark

The green is about 80' long on the diagonal.  A colleague in my group the day the photo was taken landed it on the front pad and it fed about halfway down to about 2' from the hole location so the answer is no, not under the playing conditions i experienced.  My favorite feature of the hole is the flanged lip of the bunker wall on the front bunker.  It acts to hide a well struck ball from view as it is funneling down to the left side.  The anticipation of knowing your ball is somewhere behind the lip and may or may not be feeding to the hole is a great thrill.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2011, 05:05:05 PM »
Richard,

I think we've got all the important ones included now..  its time to start with the voting.  :)

Bill Brightly

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2011, 06:11:10 PM »
My votes

1. North Berwick
2. NGLA
3. Piping Rock
4. Fishers Island
5. Carmargo
6. Yeamans Hall
7. Somerset Hills
8. Shoreacres
9. Hackensack
10. Hidden Creek


I always downgrade Doak's Redans for lack of a kick mounds. Shinny is disqualified, NLE.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 06:13:44 PM by Bill Brightly »

Joe Bausch

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2011, 06:58:19 PM »
Bill, I totally forgot about my Hackensack redan pics!  My bad.  I'll add one tomorrow.  And it is one of my faves.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Bill Brightly

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2011, 08:27:58 PM »
Bill, I totally forgot about my Hackensack redan pics!  My bad.  I'll add one tomorrow.  And it is one of my faves.

Although my vote is a bit of a homer vote, I swear that playing it almost every day I can put it on this list with full confidence that it belongs, and I have played almost every Redan on my list.

My next comment may sound self-serving (I do not mean it that way), but for those of us who are not architects or sueprintendents, this may be as close as we can come to having a postive influence on a golf hole. When I was Grounds Chair I encouraged our superintendent to investigate TDI, an in-green drainage system that works incredibly well on old push up greens, and he brought in the company for this green and 4 others. The improved drainage increased the firmness and increased the pace, so many more subtle breaks appeared. We also re-claimed 15 feet of green in the front lost to mowing patterns, and removed the rough that had been allowed to grow on the kick mound. Players used to simply fly irons at the pin and the ball would stop within maybe 5 feet of roll. It is an entirely differnet hole now, with balls rolling 10-30 yards, often right off the back of the green. Again, I am not telling this to sound important but rather, to show how knowledge gained from GCA.com really can make a difference. The front bunker needs to be deepened (back to the way Banks built it), but that is more of a stylistic touch rather than a huge factor in how the hole plays.


JNC Lyon

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2011, 09:47:00 PM »
Inniscrone! Inniscrone! (Attica! Attica!)

Don't let the naysayers deter you--Inniscrone is a freakin' phenomenal Redan hole.  When we played it, the hole was 235 from the tips.  This means a 3-wood or driver for all mortals, which also means that the ground game options critical to a Redan are more present than ever!  I got to a work a beautiful draw into the green that took the slope left, banked off the back kick plate, and funneled to 15 feet. With a driver, this ground option is much more viable than with a middle, which is often the club used on today's Redans.  For those who want the 180 yard short I-crone, the forward tees are there two.

Additionally, the marsh grass was cut when we were there, making this hole much less penal for the weaker player.

If this one isn't used, I'll protest loudly!

Bill, I agree that Hackensack's 12th is a very solid Redan, although the recent tree removal is a bummer (just kidding).  The key there is there is a huge amount of fairway to the right to bring the kick plate into full effect.  I could stand on that tee all day trying to get the draw just right.

If I had to rank the ones I've seen, I would say:

15 at NB
6 at Yeamans
8 at Inniscrone
12 at Hackensack
6 at Fox Chapel

They are all excellent, so I am separating the very best from one another.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #90 on: May 04, 2011, 10:45:46 PM »
Bump (Rich, when you going to get the first round going?)

And while I'm at it, here's a modern interpretation of the redan at the Tom Fazio designed Mountaintop in Cashiers, NC.  At first I didn't like how subtle the 'kick' short-right of the green is, since this is a clear departure from a traditional redan.  However, as I thought about it more, I realized the hole was likely designed in this manner because of the firm and fast nature of the golf course.  In another thread the question was asked whether fast greens have rendered traditional redans unplayable.  I suppose the answer in modern architecture is to make the kick more subtle.






Morgan Clawson

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #91 on: May 05, 2011, 05:00:11 PM »
Somerset really catches my eye.

Love the steep fall-off of the green.

Could Somerset's green be the most fun to watch balls hit to from the tee?

Garland Bayley

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #92 on: May 05, 2011, 05:10:13 PM »
Apache Stronghold #14

"The 14th is set on the most dramatic piece of the property as it runs along the top of a ridge. Doak put the site to good use, building a very good Redan. With a bit more right-to-left and front-to-back slope, the hole could be the second-best Redan in the country."

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Joe Bausch

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #93 on: May 05, 2011, 05:43:35 PM »
Thanks for the bump as it reminded me that I did not add my Hackensack #12 pics as I said I would.





@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Sean_A

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #94 on: May 06, 2011, 04:59:19 AM »
Looking at Shinny's and High Pointe's Redans they seem more knob to knob to me because of the deep swales short of the greens and the raised tees.  What do others think?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #95 on: May 06, 2011, 11:26:08 AM »
Sorry about the delay. I have been traveling and this is a pretty busy time at work for me.

I am going to get the list down to 32 holes (I think) and seed them and get all the background materials that I can. I hope to begin the tourney in about a week or so.

It really helps me if people who are familar with the nominated holes to post/comment all they know about the hole. So, keep'em coming!

Bill Hyde

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #96 on: May 06, 2011, 12:23:37 PM »
#9 at Kirtland is a great reverse...see Ran's profile, just bear in mind that the photos do not do it justice.

Regardless, how can any domestic candidate beat the Somerset version...unbelievable!

Alex Lagowitz

Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #97 on: May 06, 2011, 10:07:37 PM »
Inniscrone #8.



or here for a bigger pic:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/redans/inniscrone8.jpg

Somerset #4.



or here for a bigger pic:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/redans/somerset2.jpg

Hidden Creek #4.



or here for a bigger pics:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/redans/hiddencreek4.jpg

Yeaman's Hall #6.



Or here for a bigger pic:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/redans/yeamanshall6.jpg

Yale #13.



Or here for a bigger pic:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/redans/yale13.jpg


Joe,
Thanks for the pic of Somersey Hills' redan, my all time favorite ( I have yet to play NGLA or NB).
Just a quick correction as it is hole #2 not #4.

In regards to the playability of this hole, it has an unbelievable kick board and plays so true to its intent.  A high fade will not easily find the putting surface, as it does on many redans today.  This hole requires a true bounce in from the right or a very brave shot off the kick board.  Be long and you'll regret it.  Just an awesome hole.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #98 on: May 08, 2011, 04:32:53 PM »
#14 at Glen Mills (Bobby Weed):



View from up behind the green:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mac Plumart

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Re: Template Hole Madness! - Redan - Taking Nominations!!!
« Reply #99 on: May 09, 2011, 01:53:40 PM »
Why doesn't anyone copy the valley/swale/hallow behind the set of bunkers off to the right and before the green of the original Redan?  It seemed very important to me.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

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