Loyalty vs Intelectual Honesty

[jim_lewis]

Bart: The only critique I propose to stifle is my own. Everyone else is welcome to "educate" us as they wish.

Matt: My approach has nothing to do with PC. Please refrain from associating me with political correctness. My approach is all about good manners. Ever heard of them? Manners are more impotant to me than anything I am going to learn or offer on this discussion group.

[John Mayhugh]

One of your more interesting threads, Barney.  It raises fundamental questions about good manners as a guest while also raising issues regarding our ability to discuss courses on this site.  Ordinarily, the rule that as an invited guest, one should not speak ill of one's host or anything he holds dear is a good one absent special circumstances.  However that would mean that the only analysis, other than fawning positive critiques, would come from members, professional critics or raters.  Otherwise only public courses could be discussed.  Perhaps that is why in the early days of this site, most used assumed names so they could be free to violate standards of decency without being held accountable.  I am not sure I liked the results of that ethic.  For some, such as myself who hold positions in golf associations, we have additional constraints

So what do we do unless we want to limit our discussion to public courses, theoretical problems or arguments with raters?  I am not sure I have the answer, particularly since I confess to enjoying theoretical problems.  But I suppose it starts with the recognition that as  guests we owe our hosts courtesy and that if we plan to post we should say so.  Second, if we do post, we should be honest but polite and, absent some special qualifications, we should make it clear that our opinions are our own and we should try to explain our opinions.  Thus to say that the 16th hole at a course is "horrible' is merely insulting and really tells the reader nothing.  To suggest that it is overly narrow and that the green is shaped poorly given the likely angle of approach, gives the reader and club member something to consider and identifies the author's prejudices.  Thus even the club member can evalute the criticism.

As far as the types of "secrets" that are best classifed as rumor-mongering", I suggest that those have no place on this site.

The difficult balance is trying to engage in frank, honest and open discussion about a topic we enjoy while maintaining our status as decent and considerate guests.  Having hosted Barney, I know that he appreciates his status as a guest and I appreciate the thread as an effort to deal with a sensitive problem.

Very well said.  Thanks.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Don:

Fair point -- but here's my take.

If someone doesn't want to know what I think -- don't ask me.

If they do want to know -- really know -- then be prepared to hear what I offer.

No doubt people can disagree and I don't doubt your original premise is quite valid -- multiple rounds can add much. But, a return visit can also mean a previous high grade can be lowered too....

Matt, it has nothing to do with not wanting to hear what one thinks, it has to do with the "expert" basically being full of crap. I don't give a damn if you like my course or not, and the last thing I want is you showing up thinking I care about your need to grade it.    

[DMoriarty]

Matt, it has nothing to do with not wanting to hear what one thinks, it has to with the "expert" basically being full of crap. I don't give a damn if you like my course or not, and the last thing I want is you showing up thinking I care about your need to grade it.    

Amen to that.

[Sean Leary]

Sean, take this the correct way...

"Can you fix the title, please. Intellectual is one of those words that seems wrong to have spelled incorrectly."

Should not a criticism on spelling be grammatically correct as well?

I wish I could say I did this on purpose, but nope, just a dumbass..

[Tim Martin]

Don:

Fair point -- but here's my take.

If someone doesn't want to know what I think -- don't ask me.

If they do want to know -- really know -- then be prepared to hear what I offer.

No doubt people can disagree and I don't doubt your original premise is quite valid -- multiple rounds can add much. But, a return visit can also mean a previous high grade can be lowered too....

Matt, it has nothing to do with not wanting to hear what one thinks, it has to do with the "expert" basically being full of crap. I don't give a damn if you like my course or not, and the last thing I want is you showing up thinking I care about your need to grade it.    

Don-I have read nothing but accolades about your golf course on this board. That being said is it not possible that somewhat might render an opinion or comment that could lead to something positive. Based on the defensive nature of your statement above does that mean that you are not interested in any critique at all or only from those that you deem worthy?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tim,
How is that defensive? Am I really supposed to be concerned about how a guest grades my course? My course isn't for guests.
I have listened to people who have given honest feedback and I always find it to be more sincere when its along the lines of what they liked and didn't like. When someone tells me its bad because "most people" wouldn't like it, that's the sort of criticism that falls on my deaf ears. Not everyone is going to like every course. I don't like every course, and everyone is not going to like mine, and the last thing I'm going to do is start changing things based on the comments of a one time visitor.

[Jeff_Brauer]

If someone doesn't want to know what I think -- don't ask me.

If they do want to know -- really know -- then be prepared to hear what I offer.


Matt,

Spoken like a true NY/NJ guy.  Trouble is, in the rest of the real world, and maybe even there, most people will simply ask what you think, but don't really want to know.  Just like they don't want to know how you are when they ask "How are you?"  They really want a nice cheery answer, and not a rundown of your complete medical history.

Intellectual honesty as far as golf course critiques are really over rated, as compared to basic good manners, IMHO.  You might hurt feelings, but your opinion is never going to change the golf course, so what is the point really?

[Tim Martin]

Tim,
How is that defensive? Am I really supposed to be concerned about how a guest grades my course? My course isn't for guests.
I have listened to people who have given honest feedback and I always find it to be more sincere when its along the lines of what they liked and didn't like. When someone tells me its bad because "most people" wouldn't like it, that's the sort of criticism that falls on my deaf ears. Not everyone is going to like every course. I don't like every course, and everyone is not going to like mine, and the last thing I'm going to do is start changing things based on the comments of a one time visitor.

Don-Fair enough and maybe defensive was the wrong word. I guess you can make a statement like "I don`t give a damn if you like my course or not" in your unique situation but that dog probably won`t hunt anywhere else. Lucky you.

[George Pazin]

Don-I have read nothing but accolades about your golf course on this board. That being said is it not possible that somewhat might render an opinion or comment that could lead to something positive. Based on the defensive nature of your statement above does that mean that you are not interested in any critique at all or only from those that you deem worthy?

This cuts both ways. I'd bet that the person Don mentions would not even consider changing his thinking even if Don explained the thinking behind the design. If you are going to expect the person receiving the criticism to have an open mind, you better expect the same of the person offering the criticism, yet all too many critics seem to feel their opinions are bulletproof, even if based on inadequate information.

Too many people think their opinions are facts. "Such and such is unfair" is usually the biggest single clue to this type of thinking.

-----

Barney, can't say I understand the power comment at all. Perhaps you could expand on it.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

I'm not interested in the PC game -- if you don't want my opinion -- don't ask me for it. If you want my opinion simply to validate yours -- then make that point known BEFORE you ask. Then I'll know what YOU want to hear.

Jeff, the ying/yang of empty conversation serves no purpose. If I play a place and all people want to hear is glowing comments -- then let me know the dance steps before I hit the floor and the music plays. I'll be sure to dance to the music your band is playing.

Don:

Yes Don it does. Many people don't want to hear comments that don't jive with theirs. I don't doubt that there are many people who aren't sufficiently capable in providing a fair and thorough analysis. You say the "expert" is "full of crap." Fine -- for those people you have met there are those who fit that description -- the gent in the case you mentioned fits that bill -- for you. But if you want to throw the blanket across the full spectrum of people then you are generalizing -- again, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

I never claimed to be an expert -- so please spare me the combative angry retort.

If I come to a facility I try to provide my honest opinion based on my cumulative understanding of all the courses I have played and to ask questions of the folks involved what challenges they faced and what challenges they see coming down the line.

If you don't want my opinion -- fair enough -- don't ask and I won't tell you.

Jim:

C'mon -- stop it. Your whole approach is submerged in PC. In your own words -- the need for "common courtesy" outweighs the need to be straightforward and honest about one's feelings. Sites such as GCA work through people posting their comments. If they wish not to offend in the slightest bit -- then don't post. I just find the smile and say what's PC to the pro -- and then doing something on the flip side when one reports to others to be a bit of a switch tactic. If that style floats your boat so be it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

The boundary between candor and diplomacy is delicate.

There's a great ad on TV about "Honest" Abe Lincoln and the dilema he faced when his wife asked him if the dress she had on made her look heavy.

He wanted to tell the truth, but clearly understood the reality and dire consequences of such a course of action.

That delicate balance exists throughout our lives.

A good deal depends upon the forum.

A private discussion versus a public discussion.

I love, absolutely love the architecture and presentation of the challenge represented by NGLA and Seminole.

If those clubs came to me and asked, "how can we improve any aspect of our presentation and challenge ?"
I'd give it thought and respond, understanding that there's not much room for improvement.

If someone asked me the same question on this forum, I'd do the same.
It's not a negative, it's constructive advice, not criticism, and there IS a difference.

[Tim Martin]

JakaB,

The boundary between candor and diplomacy is delicate.

There's a great ad on TV about "Honest" Abe Lincoln and the dilema he faced when his wife asked him if the dress she had on made her look heavy.

He wanted to tell the truth, but clearly understood the reality and dire consequences of such a course of action.

That delicate balance exists throughout our lives.

A good deal depends upon the forum.

A private discussion versus a public discussion.

I love, absolutely love the architecture and presentation of the challenge represented by NGLA and Seminole.

If those clubs came to me and asked, "how can we improve any aspect of our presentation and challenge ?"
I'd give it thought and respond, understanding that there's not much room for improvement.

If someone asked me the same question on this forum, I'd do the same.
It's not a negative, it's constructive advice, not criticism, and there IS a difference.

Pat- You answered a delicate question delicately. Spot on.

[jim_lewis]

Matt:

I would like to go on record as saying I don't want your opinion, and certainly will not be asking for it. That's because I attach no value to it. Now, is that "straight forward and honest" enough for you?

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

That's the spirit !

Honest and direct.

Not the BS tapdance approach you advocate.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tim,
I never said I didn't care about some people's opinion. I've had Mike DeVries out and we spent a day going over the course. It was very interesting to go over the course hole by hole with him. I also have some friends who come out and I value their opinions. But they come to have fun, not under some self important role to critique.  
My 'don't give a damn" comment was directed at Matt Ward, and I don't care if he likes my course or not because I don't care for his desire to "grade" it, nor do I like his "you can't handle the truth" attitude.
  

[Matt_Ward]

Don:

You need to chill out.

You're making wild presumptions about me. Hey, if that floats your boat so be it.

I have no opinion on your course. I just said it simply -- if you don't want my opinion -- then don't ask for it. I'm not going to cowtow my comments based on the thin skin nature of certain people.

[Tim Martin]

Tim,
I never said I didn't care about some people's opinion. I've had Mike DeVries out and we spent a day going over the course. It was very interesting to go over the course hole by hole with him. I also have some friends who come out and I value their opinions. But they come to have fun, not under some self important role to critique.  
My 'don't give a damn" comment was directed at Matt Ward, and I don't care if he likes my course or not because I don't care for his desire to "grade" it, nor do I like his "you can't handle the truth" attitude.
  

Don-Thanks for the clarification. I took the "don`t give a damn" comment as general in nature and was not clear that this was directed at Matt. I would hope that anyone that comes to Wolf Point comes first to have fun and enjoy a special experience. My point was that it is possible to take someone`s opinion and use it as positive.

[Kalen Braley]

Well the beauty or beast, (depending on how you look at it), of Matt's opinions are that you will get them whether you ask for them or not!  

[Sean_A]

I struggle with the idea that a guy can upset over comments made about his home course and I don't buy that it is remotely similar to commenting on a meal at someones house

In any case I like the banter of pros and cons of holes and courses it's all light hearted stuff

We also must never lose sight of the fact that nearly all the courses discussed on this forum and worth discussing are good to great courses
The negative side of comments probably stand out more because the positives are often understood and well

Ciao

[Rick Shefchik]

I struggle with the idea that a guy can upset over comments made about his home course and I don't buy that it is remotely similar to commenting on a meal at someones house

In any case I like the banter of pros and cons of holes and courses it's all light hearted stuff

We also must never lose sight of the fact that nearly all the courses discussed on this forum and worth discussing are good to great courses
The negative side of comments probably stand out more because the positives are often understood and well

Ciao

Good point, Sean. Journalism is often disparaged because it's nothing but bad news. But nice weather, law-abiding behavior and enduring peace isn't news.

[Kirk Gill]

This question is all about relationships. If you're a rater, do you feel like you have a relationship with a club that allows you to play, or is the important relationship there with the publication you rate for? If you're invited to a club by a host member, is that often short-term relationship important? More important that letting everyone on a website know you've played there, and how you felt about it? Or if that short-term relationship is extended to multiple meetings, and multiple plays, does that change the equation?

For me what also plays in to the question is the knowledge that my critiques probably do more to expose my ignorance than they do to illuminate the relative value of a golf course! If I withhold my opinion, am I being intellectually dishonest?

[DMoriarty]

Don:

You need to chill out.

You're making wild presumptions about me. Hey, if that floats your boat so be it.

I have no opinion on your course. I just said it simply -- if you don't want my opinion -- then don't ask for it. I'm not going to cowtow my comments based on the thin skin nature of certain people.

I don't think I am going out on a limb when I say that I don't think Don wants your opinion, Matt, and I am pretty sure he didn't ask for it.

So far as I am concerned, golf course architecture would be a hell of a lot better off if more people adopted Don's attitude toward self-proclaimed experts.

[Ed Oden]

I never claimed to be an expert

Seriously?

[Sean_A]

Kirk

I don't know about raters but I gotta wonder if gca warrants this sort of confidential approach
To keep this I context we are merely talking about a field of play not holy shrines

Ciao