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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #100 on: April 21, 2011, 02:59:30 PM »
I actually have a lot of sympathy for Melvin's primary argument, which is that the game we call "golf" today can be said to have so little in common with what "golf" was a century ago that they are different sports entirely.

This may well be true, but ranting about what the game is today on even this message board, strikes me a bit like going over to a basketball message board and decrying the ongoing NBA playoffs because no peach baskets are in use and dribbling is permissible.

Matt,

I was wondering if you could elaborate on this a bit, because the only "un-common" thing I can see is how far one is able to advance their ball?

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #101 on: April 21, 2011, 03:49:08 PM »
Terry;  Trying to even things up in the putting department? 

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #102 on: April 21, 2011, 04:57:55 PM »
Melvyn:

Quote
we have created a Cancer that is taking enjoyment out of the game as we do not need any distance aid to play golf.

The beauty of the situation is that those who want to know can know and those who don't want to know don't have to.

Everyone's a winner!

+1
It's all about the golf!

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #103 on: April 21, 2011, 05:16:22 PM »

+1



Mr. Grieve, there is a serious discussion going on in this topic, your multiple posts, indicating what your handicap is, is not contributing to the subject matter.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 09:17:39 PM by Mike Benham »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #104 on: April 21, 2011, 08:47:48 PM »

+1



Mr. Grieve, there is a serious discussion going on in this post, your mutiple posts, indicating what your handicap is, is not contributing to the subject matter.

+2

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #105 on: April 22, 2011, 06:18:01 AM »
Kalen

I have re checked all items accredited to Old Tom and Yardage Markers are not one, well that is as we view them today.

There are two items that relate to markers.
The First are the boundary markers that are actually called Inch Stones. St Andrews and Elie have them and Old Tom was instructed by the local courts to survey and mark the course.  To date 4 have been found. I discounted these markers as they have their own name and do not reflect yardage but boundaries.



The Second possibility and I believe the one mentioned in Wikipedia is the Tee Yardage Markers. But these have again no bearing upon what we have been discussing as they just give the Hole distance in yards and feet from Tee to Flag.



I have searched all 19th and early 20th Century articles but have never found any reference to distance aids as we define them today.

Call me what you want but saying that was a lie is unfair as it was untrue.


Matthew

Golf was not that far off what it was at the turn of the 20th Century when I stated playing in the 60’s at home in St Andrews. My own father said the same to me when he was active on the Greens and Swimming pools of St Andrews in the 1930’s. Also many of the courses we played had remained unchanged for some 30,40,50 years. So I do not agree with you as far as my home courses are concerned. What occurred in the States may well be different.

Aids are aids and generate from outside, nevertheless how any honest golfer can play the game using these outside aids and still look himself straight in the face is beyond me. At the very least, knowing that it was not achieved by my own efforts I would feel shamed and embarrassed to admit first having to use them, second feeling good that by using them I have improved my score. I am not here to judge, only to question the honesty of the process of allowing outside aids in the first place.

Clearly the game these days comes in second to the need of the individual to win, but at such a terrible cost – this is not what I was taught golf was to be about. I know that Distance Aids are allowed but what does that say about the quality of our Governing Body that tolerates cheating on our golf courses.

Sorry, I forgot if it helps your score then its not cheating, its only using aids which are approved, however what does that say about that individual?

Do not have a go at me because you feel that your game needs such outside help and that you are unable to measure distances by using God’s gifts alone.

Melvyn

PS I am not certain that +1 or +2 are correct if you use aids then it should read -1 or -2

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #106 on: April 22, 2011, 09:00:52 AM »
Melvyn,

Let me see if I understand... it's OK to place a marker at the beginning of a hole telling me the distance to the flag is 400 yards, but it's not OK to place a marker on the same hole telling me it's 200 or 100 yards to the flag. Hmm, that logic is about as convoluted as it gets. But, I'm sure you will find some way to justify markers at the beginning of a hole, but no markers from that point on (I guess because Old Tom didn't devise it).

Apply your fundamentalist logic to this query: If it's cheating to have a plaque marking a spot 150 yards from the center of the green on a par four or par five hole, why is it not cheating to have a plaque on a par three telling me it is 150 yards from the tee to the center of the green?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 09:03:19 AM by Michael Whitaker »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #107 on: April 22, 2011, 09:09:55 AM »
Melvyn,

Let me see if I understand... it's OK to place a marker at the beginning of a hole telling me the distance to the flag is 400 yards, but it's not OK to place a marker on the same hole telling me it's 200 or 100 yards to the flag. Hmm, that logic is about as convoluted as it gets. But, I'm sure you will find some way to justify markers at the beginning of a hole, but no markers from that point on (I guess because Old Tom didn't devise it).

Apply your fundamentalist logic to this query: If it's cheating to have a plaque marking a spot 150 yards from the center of the green on a par four or par five hole, why is it not cheating to have a plaque on a par three telling me it is 150 yards from the tee to the center of the green?

Michael, to quote/paraphrase Ronald Reagan:  There you go, getting all logical again!

Bill Shotzbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #108 on: April 22, 2011, 10:27:07 AM »
I love when the worlds of GCA and WRX intersect. It's like when the caddies are allowed to swim in the pool for 15 minutes at Bushwood.  ;D

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #109 on: April 22, 2011, 11:12:37 AM »

Michael

This is where these sites fall down when you get idiots deciding to act like children with no interest in the subject matter or the real conversation the adults are holding.

Your statement is just childish, you seem to try to make the position of others stupid, yet it your own inability to conduct a good and fair debate on the subject matter that seem to get to you, hence you come out with illogical statements .

I never said anything about the tee markers or whether we should even have markers. Nevertheless for the distance challenged among us who have to use aids to help them play the game, it’s probably helps them by giving them a starting point. But for the purpose of having an adult conversation I will say it causes me no problem as we are all blessed with the same knowledge before we start each hole as its plastered on the board in front of us.  Tell me why should you have access to all these distance aids be they in markers, in books or via electronic devices because I sincerely believe that judging your next shot is very much part of the Game of Golf.

Your premise that it’s not logical is utter rubbish, part of the skill factor is and will always be judging distances, now the skilled player can utilise his natural inbuilt skills to get close to his target. Why are we given away a hard gained skills of being able to judge distance to nerds who have no commitment or interest to the game otherwise they would be out training their eyes to measure distance. It’s a skill that we need to protect to enable the whole experience of the game to win through – make it easy diminish the enjoyment of the game, stop them thinking and why bother with the game in the first place.

This is not a rant its fundamental to the rewards and skill of the game, now I can with regret accept that the R&A do not understanding but golfer of the quality and commitment that we have (not all, alas) on this site should certainly understand, after all they are Members because they say they love the game.

The problem here I suppose is that I am like a bull dog and will not let go. Yet distance aids are unfair, we know they are wrong, many of you here know they wrong and unfair shortcutting the hard earned skills picked up from years of playing the game.

But take the piss Michael, throw crap into the ring, then look at yourself and ask do I care about golf or do I just play it. If you just play it then find another site because this is meant to be about GCA and mate, like it or not distance is entwined with it.

Grow some balls Michael, and look to protecting our game and us, the golfers, allow us to pass on a real game of golf not to just our children but our grandchildren and not see it being transformed into an online game. Don’t tell me you really believe in this crap you posted “Apply your fundamentalist logic to this query: If it's cheating to have a plaque marking a spot 150 yards from the center of the green on a par four or par five hole, why is it not cheating to have a plaque on a par three telling me it is 150 yards from the tee to the center of the green? Michael, you are far better than that.

I do not care if I am popular, but I do care about the Royal and Ancient Game of Golf. Where is the logic in fighting each other when the game continues to suffer. There is no future in doing sweet nothing. Is it not time to say that as you have circumvented the skill route, (by using aids) you are cheating. What was the recent post, it takes 10,000 hours to become a Pro or should that read 100 hours if you are allowed to use all the aids available, but no I expect you will not want to accept that I may have a point, you may prefer to see that game destroyed before you agree with me on anything. I hope that is not how your mind works.

Melvyn


C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #110 on: April 22, 2011, 11:36:54 AM »
Melvyn, what do you think about numbers on the sole of a club?  A seasoned golfer has no problems blinding identifying a 6 iron from a 7 iron.  Should that skill be highlighted by erasing any identifying marks off of clubs?

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #111 on: April 22, 2011, 11:53:01 AM »


Clint

Childish, why do you guys go to these stupid lengths - are you really that stupid ???

Melvyn

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #112 on: April 22, 2011, 12:53:42 PM »


Clint

Childish, why do you guys go to these stupid lengths - are you really that stupid ???

Melvyn

Had it been anyone else who posted that, I'd probably be a touch offended.  But considering it came from the member most detached from reality, I'll consider that a backwards compliment. 

What I would do to see the looks of the R&A when you step onto the property.  Just thinking about it makes me all warm inside. 

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #113 on: April 22, 2011, 01:06:03 PM »
Kalen

I have re checked all items accredited to Old Tom and Yardage Markers are not one, well that is as we view them today.

There are two items that relate to markers.
The First are the boundary markers that are actually called Inch Stones. St Andrews and Elie have them and Old Tom was instructed by the local courts to survey and mark the course.  To date 4 have been found. I discounted these markers as they have their own name and do not reflect yardage but boundaries.



The Second possibility and I believe the one mentioned in Wikipedia is the Tee Yardage Markers. But these have again no bearing upon what we have been discussing as they just give the Hole distance in yards and feet from Tee to Flag.



I have searched all 19th and early 20th Century articles but have never found any reference to distance aids as we define them today.

"I never said anything about the tee markers or whether we should even have markers."

Did someone else make the post above in your name?

"Nevertheless for the distance challenged among us who have to use aids to help them play the game, it’s probably helps them by giving them a starting point."

"Was Old Tom trying to help out the 'distance challenged' of his day when he put markers on the Old Course? I didn't think there were any 'distance challenged' golfers back then. If not, why did he place yardage markers at the beginning of each hole?

But for the purpose of having an adult conversation I will say it causes me no problem as we are all blessed with the same knowledge before we start each hole as its plastered on the board in front of us. Tell me why should you have access to all these distance aids be they in markers, in books or via electronic devices because I sincerely believe that judging your next shot is very much part of the Game of Golf.

My question didn't mention any aids other than distance markers provided at the tee... it's a recurring trick of yours to muddy the water by throwing in other measuring devices. Let's stick to discussing just plaques in the ground.

Don’t tell me you really believe in this crap you posted “Apply your fundamentalist logic to this query: If it's cheating to have a plaque marking a spot 150 yards from the center of the green on a par four or par five hole, why is it not cheating to have a plaque on a par three telling me it is 150 yards from the tee to the center of the green?

The question at hand is not what I believe... the question is what do YOU believe? So, I'll ask again...

If it's cheating to have a plaque marking a spot 150 yards from the center of the green on a par four or par five hole, why is it not cheating to have a plaque on a par three telling me it is 150 yards from the tee to the center of the green?

It's a simple question.

"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #114 on: April 22, 2011, 01:39:44 PM »
Michael - With all due respect... it isn't cheating; it just isn't Golf.  All these distance aides dumb down the game and make it too easy for everyone.  That's why we are all breaking par with such regularity and so bored with this game.  There is no challenge left.  I mean someone has obviously crossed the line of easiness when I can take 6 weeks off from the game and still shoot a nice, neat 95 with no trouble at all!  Damned be the distance aides like 150 markers.  I don't understand why it is so hard for you to understand why those of us that rarely (or in some cases never) play the game shouldn't impose our will upon the game for the greater good.  Golf has become a video game only easier.

Kindest regards,

Tim

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #115 on: April 22, 2011, 02:12:00 PM »
MKM,

If we are supposed to use our natural skills, namely our eyes, to judge the distance of a golf shot, how do we decide what to hit on a completely blind shot, like the second shot to the Alps at Prestwick? I ask this in all seriousness; thanks in advance for your reply.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #116 on: April 22, 2011, 02:24:38 PM »
Michael - With all due respect... it isn't cheating; it just isn't Golf.  All these distance aides dumb down the game and make it too easy for everyone.  That's why we are all breaking par with such regularity and so bored with this game.  There is no challenge left.  I mean someone has obviously crossed the line of easiness when I can take 6 weeks off from the game and still shoot a nice, neat 95 with no trouble at all!  Damned be the distance aides like 150 markers.  I don't understand why it is so hard for you to understand why those of us that rarely (or in some cases never) play the game shouldn't impose our will upon the game for the greater good.  Golf has become a video game only easier.

Kindest regards,

Tim

Tim - Melvyn was the one who classified it as cheating. I'm just trying to narrow down why he considers some distance markers unacceptable and cheating, while others are perfectly acceptable. To quote Melvyn:

"I know that Distance Aids are allowed but what does that say about the quality of our Governing Body that tolerates cheating on our golf courses.
Sorry, I forgot if it helps your score then its not cheating, its only using aids which are approved, however what does that say about that individual?"

Personally, I don't have a problem with either of the type I mentioned.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #117 on: April 22, 2011, 02:31:28 PM »
Michael - With all due respect... it isn't cheating; it just isn't Golf.  All these distance aides dumb down the game and make it too easy for everyone.  That's why we are all breaking par with such regularity and so bored with this game.  There is no challenge left.  I mean someone has obviously crossed the line of easiness when I can take 6 weeks off from the game and still shoot a nice, neat 95 with no trouble at all!  Damned be the distance aides like 150 markers.  I don't understand why it is so hard for you to understand why those of us that rarely (or in some cases never) play the game shouldn't impose our will upon the game for the greater good.  Golf has become a video game only easier.

Kindest regards,

Tim

Tim - Melvyn was the one who classified it as cheating. I'm just trying to narrow down why he considers some distance markers unacceptable and cheating, while others are perfectly acceptable. To quote Melvyn:

"I know that Distance Aids are allowed but what does that say about the quality of our Governing Body that tolerates cheating on our golf courses.
Sorry, I forgot if it helps your score then its not cheating, its only using aids which are approved, however what does that say about that individual?"

Personally, I don't have a problem with either of the type I mentioned.


Michael,

I'm afraid you've missed the boat on Tim's last post!  He should have included some smiley's but I was laughing my arse off!  ;)

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #118 on: April 22, 2011, 02:43:36 PM »
Michael - With all due respect... it isn't cheating; it just isn't Golf.  All these distance aides dumb down the game and make it too easy for everyone.  That's why we are all breaking par with such regularity and so bored with this game.  There is no challenge left.  I mean someone has obviously crossed the line of easiness when I can take 6 weeks off from the game and still shoot a nice, neat 95 with no trouble at all!  Damned be the distance aides like 150 markers.  I don't understand why it is so hard for you to understand why those of us that rarely (or in some cases never) play the game shouldn't impose our will upon the game for the greater good.  Golf has become a video game only easier.

Kindest regards,

Tim

Tim - Melvyn was the one who classified it as cheating. I'm just trying to narrow down why he considers some distance markers unacceptable and cheating, while others are perfectly acceptable. To quote Melvyn:

"I know that Distance Aids are allowed but what does that say about the quality of our Governing Body that tolerates cheating on our golf courses.
Sorry, I forgot if it helps your score then its not cheating, its only using aids which are approved, however what does that say about that individual?"

Personally, I don't have a problem with either of the type I mentioned.


Michael,

I'm afraid you've missed the boat on Tim's last post!  He should have included some smiley's but I was laughing my arse off!  ;)

I was in a hurry... Tim's post is brilliant. That's exactly the point, isn't it?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Dick Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #119 on: April 22, 2011, 04:26:19 PM »
Did you know that when a golfer in the 19th century came to a par 3 hole that had a marker indicating the distance to the middle of the green, that if the golfer were to look at it he would be using an outside aid and in so doing was lowering the integrity of the game?

I have heard that some of the better known golfers of that era refused to even look at said marker as it would lower their skill level.

When you fast forward to to-day, it is obvious that all integrity and skill in the game have been lost, given that sprinklers have yardage on them, and some golfers even carry electronic devices that can tell them how far it is to a bunker, or even exactly to the flag.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #120 on: April 22, 2011, 04:34:42 PM »
Did you know that when a golfer in the 19th century came to a par 3 hole that had a marker indicating the distance to the middle of the green, that if the golfer were to look at it he would be using an outside aid and in so doing was lowering the integrity of the game?

I have heard that some of the better known golfers of that era refused to even look at said marker as it would lower their skill level.

When you fast forward to to-day, it is obvious that all integrity and skill in the game have been lost, given that sprinklers have yardage on them, and some golfers even carry electronic devices that can tell them how far it is to a bunker, or even exactly to the flag.

Dick, if that's true, why would there have markers in the first place?

After all, bars (and maybe brothels) are closed on Sunday to eliminate temptation while en route to church on the Sabbath!

Dick Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #121 on: April 22, 2011, 04:40:56 PM »
Bill

My post was tongue in cheek. I should have added some smileys.

I like yours about the brothels though, but how did you know that?

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #122 on: April 23, 2011, 03:16:35 AM »
Distance is just one of many variables to getting the ball in the hole, so few players can hit a ball exactly 83 or 137 yards there use is an aside.

I recall seeing players marching 100 yards down a hole to check the distance or pin position, I'm sure they probably did the same in the "golden days" and I'd much prefer a yardage chart and pin position sheet that that.
Cave Nil Vino

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #123 on: April 23, 2011, 07:54:20 AM »
Kalen

Of all sites you take information from Wikipedia and then take it as gospel, yet had you read the article about Old Tom you may also have noticed that they gave him credit for the 9 Holes returning to the Club House, I thought this was a later development by Colt. Nevertheless as it comes from Kalen (who by your own omissions has done sweet zero research on anything golf) it must be true plus he has also made it very clear that I have lied.

I have only ever gone on information found and published, relating to Distance Aids and I still maintain that I have found no proof that this existed in the 19th Century. I do not recall markers in my earlier years at TOC, but then I was not looking as I was taught in St Andrews that golf was a walking and thinking game utilising God’s gifts. Still surprised that they were not introduced to me at that time as part of the game because I would have remembered

Irrespective of Kalen trying to muddy the waters, if you have to use distance aids in whatever form  I have said time after time its your choice, but it is clearly an outside aid so should IMHO be regarded as just that.  I also believe its kills the game by generating selfish individuals, some who will pace the distance, others who let all the world know their distance details, others left fumbling with booklets and notes while others look to the horizon believing to be Nelson reincarnated, yet what they do not realise is that they are using the wrong eye which he lost I believe at the Battle of the Nile. Flower it up, down or stick it up your backside the whole point is that you are using outside aids to help your game. Yet how many of you see it is as outside of the Spirit of the Game, I suppose that depends upon how many of you are honest with yourselves or for that matter really care.

You can make excused, take the piss, but in the end if you use aids then you are only letting yourselves down, living the Lie and having a nerve to post a handicap after using these aids to obtain your scores.

I might be boring and annoying in keep bring up the subject but I have hit a nerve, that nerve which we all have that tell us the difference between right and wrong no matter what others may say.

Rather than moan, call me names or a liar, why not try playing with no aids for a week or two, then honestly tell us your experiences. Because that is the only way of really judging the matter.

This site does not disappoint, it still has no way of allowing fee debate, but it does allow the worms to crawl out and infect the subject that do have a bearing on Golf Course Architecture. Perhaps in time Members may realise that GCA has little to do if anything with rankings or rating lists.    

To all the* Sturgeon on this site I wish you Bon Appétit

Melvyn


*Sturgeon is a bottom feeder but the female produces Caviar, I will leave you to decide which of the two you feel that you might take after.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2011, 10:11:18 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Masters Yardage Book
« Reply #124 on: April 23, 2011, 08:02:08 AM »
This site doesn't allow free debate, Melvyn?

Surely you jest.

This thread's been dragged kicking and screaming to its fourth page. How much more free debate do you want?!

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