[Cliff Hamm]

Cliff:

You must have missed my post -- head across the Hudson and you can see the obvious answer --

WINGED FOOT !

Baltusrol is a fine choice but can't hold the collective caliber of WF.

Good call on TN -- solid layout there too.

Matt...I read your post and you refer to WFE as a "lite" version of the West.  I have never seen the East course, except walking across it for majors  .  I don't question the strength of either WF courses, I don't question that WFE is not quite the difficulty of WFW, but are they architecturally that different?

Comes down to what you're looking for, but I do think it is hard to beat Baltusrol.  When playing either course you would never think you were in the same neighborhood, and for that matter that the same architect designed them.  They are on two completely different pieces of land and very different courses.  That is what I think sets Baltusrol apart.  Not that the two courses are as strong as WF.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Sunningdale is my favorite place to Play. Both are great courses. I would
add Walton Heath and Ballyliffen as well.

[Matt_Ward]

Cliff:

Yes, they are different -- if you played the East you would see that.

WF West is miles beyond the Lower.

WF East is a good bit better than the Upper (which incidentally I really like as do most Baltusrol members from what I have been told).

I can appreciate your viewpoint but you need to play the East to thoroughly understrand my take.

[Mark McKeever]

Regarding Winged Foot, I'm curious as to how well the two layouts complement each other there.  Is the East a good counterpart to the bearlike West Course?  From what I have heard, the East is a damn good golf course but also a very difficult layout.  I would prefer something like Oak Hill or Merion, where one course is a stiff test and the other is more relaxed.

I will be able to have some input for you soon John.   

Mark

[Jim Colton]

According to the Conf Guide, we have Royal Melbourne at a combined 16 and Winged Foot with a combined 15.  Anything else crack the lofty 15?

[Ron Csigo]

Two more:

Baltimore Country Club
Oakland Hills

[Scott Warren]

Jim:

Sunningdale scored 15 also (Old 8, New 7).

Walton Heath scored 14 (Old 8, New 6).

[Sean_A]

Royal Portrush

After a few years of reading this site, I know that when I make my trip over there I need to play the Valley Links as well.

I haven't seen some of the American choices and ffor sure they are gooduns...for parkland courses.  The best I have seen with the most dynamic difference in course styles, but both still of a very high quality - Portrush.  Saunton too deserves a mention.

Although, do folks think the club itself should have any influence in this?  You know, history, ambience, snobbery - the whole deal.   

Ciao

I think Portrush scored very highly, but I don't know about 15.  Who knows - I think the Dunluce was a 9 and I would think the Valley is worth at least 6, but Doak is stingy with the wee courses. 

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Jim,

Depending how low you want to count, Wentworth (East and West) and The Berkshire (Red and Blue) were both 12s, with both courses receiving a 6 at each club.

[J_ Crisham]

You can throw in Whisper Rock (AZ) too. The original 18 there gets little attention and frankly deserves a good bit more.

Although I am not a fan of it -- Champions has 36 holes too.

In my backyard one needs to mention Montclair GC -- hosted the '85 US Amateur.

Red Sky Ranch in CO deserves mention -- the Norman course there especially.

In regards to the #1 position in the USA -- nothing can beat what Winged Foot provides -- the West can match any other layout such as Merion East but no facility in America has as good a second 18 the East at WF.
[/quoteMatt-  why no love for Champions? Have you plyed here before? Was it too difficult for your tastes? Just curious- I think it is a nice club with 2 fine courses and great atmosphere.             Jack

[Matt_Ward]

Jack:

My issue with Champions is not the membership -- grand people no doubt or the hospitality.

Just flat-out boring design with greens literally as big as Texas.

Played it about 15 years ago and just shook my head.

Hard for me to fathom how the course ever hosted a US Open. Hats off to Burke and Demaret for that success.

Cypress Creek and JackRabbit were both rated by GD within its top 100 at one time and when I hold those two against the two at WF it's literally night and day. Just my opinion.

[Niall Hay]

Royal Troon
Sunningdale

Winged Foot
Baltusrol
MPCC

Whisper Rock?

[Matt_Ward]

Niall:

Likely plenty of people have not heard about WR.

First rate desert experience -- the Lefty / Gary Stephenson original 18 is played by plenty of tour stars who PAY THEIR OWN $$ to play there.

The TF layout is quite good as well.

[Tony_Chapman]

Will the Prairie Club be on this list soon?

Could you include Pine Needles/Mid-Pines as a combo?

Also re: Congressional. I've been looking at that place on mapquest recently and can only find 27 holes. I thought it was 36; am I missing something?

[J Sadowsky]

Will the Prairie Club be on this list soon?

Could you include Pine Needles/Mid-Pines as a combo?

Also re: Congressional. I've been looking at that place on mapquest recently and can only find 27 holes. I thought it was 36; am I missing something?

It's certainly 36.  The Gold Course is 18 holes.  The "candidates" for best 36 hole private courses in the DC area are probably Congressional, Woodmont, and Trump National (formerly Lowes Island), though the only other 36 holers I am aware of are Landsdowne and Army-Navy, so, yeah, 3 of 5.  Congressional is commonly considered the best of the bunch, though I think the Gold course is only considered on par with Woodmont's and Trump's 4 courses.

[Chris Cupit]

Atlanta Athletic Club has got to be at or near the top of the list.....And can we include Saucon Valley and just pick any two of the three championship courses they have on their property...

AAC?  The club has many superlatives but they aren't the courses!  I've always thought AAC was a prime example of a great club with very marginal courses from an architectural POV.

[Bill Brightly]

There are some great names listed so far, but Saucon Valley's Old Course and (newly renovated) Weyhill course should also be included. And it does not hurt to have a sold third course, the Grace, which once upon a time had a top 100 ranking.

Confidential Guide ratings Old 7, Weyhill 6 (would be higher if he saw it, IMO) and Grace 6.

I would rate them 8, 8 and 5.

[Chris Cupit]

I may have missed the point of the thread. AAC is a great club and it does have 36 holes. I was thinking more about the courses only.

[Mark Chaplin]

Sunningdale should be a pair of 8s

Go 27 holes and you add in Pine Valley and Rye with it's underrated Jubilee course.

[Jim Nugent]

Dismal River could join the club -- especially if they hire Doak to do the second course.  

[Matt_Ward]

Bill B:

If you think Old and Weyhill are both 8's -- then WF W and WF E would be 10 and 9 in my mind.

If there'a one facility that's overrated it's Saucon Valley. Never understood how The Grace Course was ever rated
in the top 100 by GD.

[Mark McKeever]

I am very interested to see the Weyhill this year.

Mark

[Matt_Ward]

Let me clarify before the pro SV crowd weighs in.

I like the Old and Weyhill -- it's just not as much as others. At best a 6 on the Doak scale -- maybe a 7 if generous with the Old.

In real terms -- WFW would be a 9 for me -- WFE would be no more than 7 -- possibly an 8 if one is generous.

I also still believe The Grace is way overrated and frankly should never have been rated
among the nation's top 100.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill B:

If you think Old and Weyhill are both 8's -- then WF W and WF E would be 10 and 9 in my mind.

If there'a one facility that's overrated it's Saucon Valley. Never understood how The Grace Course was ever rated
in the top 100 by GD.

I have no problem with you giving Winged Foot West a 10, you think it is "nearly perfect" and "if you skipped one hole you would miss something special".. I have only played it once and I have not played the East course. Doak gave them 9 and 6, respectively. I just went by Doak's definition of an 8: one of the very best courses in the region, worth a special trip to see. I think that Saucon Valley Old and Weyhill are that high in the Philly/Eastern PA region, but they are bound to be at least 7's in almost anyone's judgement.

As I have explained in prior threads, the Grace  being rated in the top 100 in the 1980's speaks volumes about what the raters liked back then: big bold bunkers, superbly manicured fairways and greens. Obviously, there have been hundreds of great new courses built since then and that style of course is much less in vogue. Nevertheless, when you go to the back tees, it is the toughest of the 3 courses to this day.

[Kalen Braley]

I can't see anything touching MPCC for sheer location, quality of courses, ambiance, the whole kit and kabootle!

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