[eshortz]

Ran suggested a few days ago that the greatest difference in the Doak scale in between 9 and 10.

Allow me to suggest that the most profound difference is between 8 and 9.

Reasonable minds can always disagree as to whether Pebble, Sand Hills, Merion, Pinehurst, Newcastle, Dornoch, Muirfield, NGLA, Shinne, and a few others that slip my mind, are either 9s or 10s.

There are far fewer examples of 8s that could be considered 9s.  We would most all agree that Portmarnock, Lahinch (especially since it has been changed for the worse), Five Farms, Yale, LACC (where I play), Baltusrol and a few others, are 8s, but few would elevate them to the above class.  

Perhaps, one could make a credible argument that there are courses that fall somewhere between the 8 and 9 (but there are far fewer examples) -- perhaps, Riviera, SFGC, Somerset Hills, Turnberry, Carnoustie.

Nevertheless, the material dividing point seems to be between 8 and 9. Others thoughts?

[TEPaul]

"The material dividing point seems to be between 8 and 9".

I don't know what that means. I certainly know what golf courses I've seen that I like and why--architecturally. I have no idea how those numbers translate architecturally. Could someone tell me?

I've noticed a lot of people on here are apt to mention a course like Riviera, for instance, and say with certainty that it's an 8. Could someone tell me how they know that--architecturally?

Are there like five courses in the world (or ten) that can be a 10 and then it has to start going down from there? Is that the way the Doak Scale works?

[Tom Doak]

The Doak Scale is my best value judgment on whether a golf course is worth going out of your way to play.  It isn't intended to be an exact measurement of architectural merit.  

There are no quotas for the number of courses at any level, though in general the numbers tend to follow a Bell curve distribution.  The one thing I disagreed with in the "decile system" discussed here earlier is that design interest is not likely to be distributed evenly across a given area.  The top 10% of courses in Melbourne is way better than the top 10% in Florida.

[TEPaul]

What I would like to see happen with any kind of ranking, particularly any kind of comparative ranking is to see those that do it explain in real architectural terms why one course might not measure up to another. If there is something that could be done that would help it measure up better or at least become as good as it could be then that would be extremely valuable for all to know, particularly the club itself.

Of course there would be tons of courses that probably couldn't measure up for a number of reasons, reasons inherent to the course, whatever, and that too would be good to know and to have explained so they don't do things to make the course worse than it already is.

The major magazine rankings seem structured in such a way as to never be capable of doing something like this--they  have far too many panelists which is far to cumbersome and imperfect and obviously some editorial skewing for who knows what reasons.

And it should be realized that they are compiled to sell magazines, not necessarily to educate people on architecture, either generally or specifically!

It seems like courses are just numerically listed and then it's up to anyone and everyone to figure out why!

Interesting to some obviously but not very educational.

[Brad Miller]

TomP, if I understand TD correctly, if today there are only 30 9s of better today(just picking a #), there seems to be no reason that there can't be 50 in 5 years plus, assumong quality developement and sympathetic restoration. Some method that addressed architectual merit,  integrety and maintance meld might help many a 7 become an 8 and so it goes.

[David Wigler]

eshortz,

I felt like I was taking the SAT test again and being asked to pick which one doesn't belong.  Do you really believe the Pinehurst #2 (As it sits today) is a 9 and belongs mentioned in the same breath as the others?  I believe that the difference between a nine and ten is huge.  Pinehurst is a 7 1/2 - 8 in my book.  It is a quantum leap for it (As it sits today) to be mentioned in the same breath with NGLA, County Down, Dornoch, and Pebble.

[Matt_Ward]

DavidW:

With all due respect -- if you can't see why Pinehurst #2 is at MINIMUM a 9 then I must wonder how many times you have played the course? A "quantum leap" to be mentioned in the highest of classes -- really? What is lacking in the course?

#2 often gets a bad shake from people because it is not photographic as other courses and there numerous subtle elements throughout the 18 holes.

Pinehurst #2 deservingly belongs in our Open rotation with such heavyweights as PB and SH every ten years. In my mind, when a course has been tested at the highest level of competition and is still capable in handling the masses you have a course of the highest sort. Pinehurst #2 fits that bill in my book, and, though I am hestitant to name any course a 10, I would put #2 up there for consideration.

When you play #2 you are tested in the most comprehensive and thorough manner possible. The course says "bring me your best game" and #2 allows you hit driver without the bowling alley effect you get at so many American parksland type courses. The full gambit of your game, physically and mentally, is always put to the test on #2.

One last item -- I'm glad Tom Doak explained his numbers system because he is VERY clear that specific areas of the country / world may have more quality courses than others. There is no equal distribution of top flight courses as most obviously know in visiting many areas to ascertain for themselves.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom Paul,
Define what "architecturally" means??  I think you've gotten so obsessed with this that you've forgotten what golf and golf courses are really all about    Maybe thats why you don't like anything to do with rankings.

I think most of us have always know what The Doak Scale was meant to imply.  I've used it for years just as Tom describes it!
Mark

Note:  Pinehurst #2 is easily a 9+  

[John_Conley]

The top 10% of courses in Melbourne is way better than the top 10% in Florida.

And 90% of all golf courses fall outside that!  Deciling will not work to cause you to make a trip to somewhere to see Falsterbo, Cape Breton Highlands, or Sand Hills (three of the most remote courses I can think of).  If I am correct, you play ZERO "grab the yellow pages, beg for a tee time, pay a green fee" rounds of golf.  For the rest of the world.... it is helpful to some to know if they should drive 20 minutes to play North Shore or 40 minutes to play Rock Springs Ridge instead of paying three figs to play International when they're staying near Sea World for the PGA Show.

Wiggles:
Your thoughts were to the SAT while mine were to Sesame Street.  "One of these things just doesn't belong here, one of these things just isn't right."    I've always been a little remedial.

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt Ward,

I'm not surprised someone might think a "9" is way too high for Pinehurst.

Appreciating the course is like learning to appreciate fine wine.  When I first moved to California I shoke my head at all the people discussing different wineries, different years, different styles, etc.  I didn't get it.  But, within a couple years I was doing the same thing and my Mid Western friends thought I became a snob!

That's Pinehurst.  For many people, perhaps most people, it is going to take multiple visits.

Photogenic courses require a different analogy, something like the girl you met in the bar who looked great, but not quite as appealing when you ran into her again.

Now, I'm trying to remember whether TD said anything about golf courses and women or wine.  Do you recall?
  

[David Wigler]

Matt,

I will grant that I have only 3 rounds on #2, so it might get better if I played it more but I do not think so.  I so badly wanted to love it.  This is Donald Ross's Opus.  I was in heaven from the moment I showed up.  The course was (And was again and again) a supreme disappointment.  I think that most of the ratings have it correctly between #20 and #30, i.e. a strong 7 1/2-8.  Let's face it; the greens are fairly repetitive in concept and required approach shot.  The land it sits on is average.  The routing is brilliant and I do not believe anyone could have done more with it but IMO facts are facts.    Furthermore, the conditioning is somewhere between pathetic and criminal and the way the course is managed is atrocious.  I have never walked it in less than 5 1/2 hours and have been in many places where I wanted ground under repair due to burnout, lack of grass, etc.  I know those issues are not Ross's fault but they are relevant in how a course is perceived.  Believe me when I tell you that this course broke my heart.  Inverness is a true paradise and a place I could play every day.  I went to Pinehurst expecting Inverness on steroids.  I got a nice round of golf (Horribly overpriced) that was not worthy of my expectation.

I know that this is heresy and I will get blasted for it but let's put it to the smell test.  If you sent a friend to it who had no idea it was Donald Ross's Opus or even who Donald Ross was and had him pay $250 for a course with 18 identical approach shots to eighteen similar green set ups, played in 6 hours and was conditioned like your local muni, what do you think his response3 would be?  I'll bet he would argue that 7 1/2 is extremely generous.

BTW I have had this discussion with Dr. Klein on several occasions and have lost each time with him as well.

[Richard_Goodale]

David

For what it's worth, my feelings of #2 are similar to yours.  I have to caveat even more as I only played the course once, about 15 years ago when it was not being managed terribly well.  Nevertheless, I agree with your criticisms about repetitiveness, and I would also mark it down (since Mark Fine say we can) for its ambience.  OK, but not much more than any other oldish southern resort.  My opinion of the course went up with my views of the US Open played there, but I'll still play my next round there with very much of a "show me" attitude.  I too visited #2 with very high expectations, having experienced a substantial amount of golf in Scotland, at all the courses associated with DJR, and I saw very little of those courses in Pinehurst, even in the abstract sense.   I know we are in the great minority on this issue, but the majority is not always right, in golf, or even in the quality of the emperor's clothing.

[Mark_Fine]

Geoff Shackelford sent me a Christmas card and on it were pictures of Rustic Canyon.  I told him I am anxious to see the course and (though you can't tell too much from pictures) it looked "simple but complex"!  He hoped I was correct.  I describe Pinehurst #2 in the same manner.  Some of the greatest courses need to be studied very carefully to fully understand just how good they really are.  
JMHO!
Mark

[Matt_Ward]

David / Rich:

I'm sorry that both of your visits to #2 were less than expected. I'm also sad to hear the turf conditions may have also been less than their best in addition to the snail's pace of play (6 hours anywhere is way too much!).

I had the pleasure in playing #2 quite a few times during my college years at Univ of S. Carolina. I saw the changes to the course from previous owners and what has been done by Club Corporation is to be commended. I hope they saw both of your posts and realize that keeping #2 in its position will depend on no less than major TLC each and everyday.

Yes, the green fee you paid David is no small amount of change, but I believe the full range of clubs is called upon at #2 and this is one course where ambience is not in the scenery, but in the subtle manner in which Ross keeps full pressure on you throughout 18 holes.

I see #2 as one of America's finest when prepared as it should play. If the conditions were not up to par when both of you played I can fully see how each of you have come to see the course. Rich is right -- I would keep the "show me" approach, but I believe #2 will win your praise in the long run.
Hopefully, both of you can play the course prior to the 05 Open if not sooner because each time I have played the course the conditions were very good.

[David Wigler]

Matt,

Are you from the area?  I get down there about once a year and have been avoiding #2, based on previous disappointments.  If you are local, then I will go there again.  I would enjoy seeing it with someone who doesn't see the warts.  Maybe they could help me make them disappear.  I was sincere when I said that there may not be another course in the US that I wanted to love so badly and was disappointed at.

[Paul Richards]

David:

Sorry to disagree with you, but Pinehurst is a 9.0 to 9.5.

In fact, it's in my personal top 5.

Take some time to study it.  It's one of the few places that
is "worth" the ridiculous prices they charge.  

[Richard_Goodale]

Matt

Don't get me wrong, even with my less than ecstatic response to my only visit to #2 I still rate it very highly-up with places like SFGC, Prairie Dunes, NGLA, Lytham & St. Annes, Rye, TPC-Sawgrass, Harbour Town, etc.  Not a bad group.  I just expected more.

I do also very much respect the views of you and others who know it better and rate it more highly.  If I qualify for the 2005 Open I'll let you know my revised opinion!

Cheers

Rich

[Gib_Papazian]

Professor Wigler,

I can easily see how Pinehurst would not knock your socks off, but your tastes do not as fully embrace the Treehouse dogma as some of the natives. That said, when you begin to think about the individual holes that are outstanding, they add up quickly. #5 is one of the 10 best par-4 holes I have ever played.  The golf course gets a solid 8 1/2 from me, although it has a few indifferent holes (#2 & 16 come to mind)and lacks that visceral magic to get a bulletproof 9 on my personal list.

See you on Saturday.

[Paul Richards]

Gib:

Agreed.

#2 is solid.  The fifth is one of the best par fours anywhere.

[Matt_Ward]

David:

I live in the greater NY / NJ metro area. My last round at #2 was just after the Open was played in '99, however, when I attended college in the south I played #2 no less than 25 times.

Believe me, the issues you and Rich presented have been said of quite a few courses. One that comes to mind is Harbour Town Golf Links on Hilton Head Island, SC. Many times people would venture to play this wonderful layout and would be shocked by the abysmal turf conditions given the high green fees charged. From what I understand the management has made a concerted effort to keep things as uniform as possible now to encourage return play.

I hope your next venture to #2 will be more productive in terms of its presentation. I've always found #2 to be like your grandfather -- you always thought he was a bit gruff, but many times there were pearls of wisdom coming from his lips. #2 is that rare course where the top player and the high handicapper can both play without making major modifications to the existing layout. Few courses I've played can say that.

Hope this helps ...

[Paul Richards]

Matt:

Very well said.

[David Wigler]

All right already, damnit.  I will play it again this year.  I promise to ignore the conditions and the pace of play.  I will put it on the credit card, so the $250 sting does not hit my hands until after.  I will eliminate any expectation of eye candy.  I am going to do this because Gib and Paul have earned my respect and know I appreciate their opinions and Matt, although I haven't met you, from your posts it seems we have similar tastes but I'll tell you what; if I still feel this emperor has no clothes, I am going to figure out how to use the search engine on this site (Maybe the first one to do so) recall this post and blast away.  

Gib - Looking forward to seeing you on Saturday as well.  Quick request though, if it requires a right hand turn to get to the course, do not have me ride with Stettner.  He keeps insisting on going left  .

[Jeff_McDowell]

David,

If you want a quick round at #2, play on mother's day. The place is empty, and you can walk on with out a tee time.

[David Wigler]

Jeff,

Thanks for the tip

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