[Niall Hay]

Niall,

  To the best of my knowledge, Burning Tree was originally an Alison design (under the banner of Colt, Alison, Mackenzie).  Some have improperly credited it a Mackenzie.  I believe, and I might be mistaken, it was constructed by the Flynn & Toomey Construction Company.  

Several of the holes west of the clubhouse (10,11,12,13,14) were impacted by the Beltway.

Arthur Hills did work there at some point in the past 10-20 years.  Obviously, it is a lot different now.  It's a club with a great atmosphere and a lot of history.  Looking at some historic aerials is quite interesting. 

And locker room!

[Niall Hay]

What is The Park Club? Where is it?

Williamsville (outskirts of Buffalo)

The Park Club
- Charles Alison design 1927
- hosted 1934 PGA Championship
- still very intact
- very subtle approach but great fun to play

- some minor modifications but fortunately all greens are original






Great stuff. I had never heard of. Sounds great.
- greens make the course
- grass faced bunkers originally (almost back to that again)

[Niall Hay]

Hamilton is the best of the two Colts

- routing is intact for the front and most of back
- some spectcacular holes
- 13th (excellent hole) is a 90 degree shift by W. Diddle
- 14th and 15th are altered (1st green of 3rd nine is the old 15th green location)
- I count 8 rebuilt greens
- bunkers are not what they once were either

well worth seeing - Alison consulted there

Heard great things about Hamilton. Thanks for the info! Great stuff.

[Niall Hay]

Ian you seem to know a lot about the Colt designs. How would you rate the top 5 US Alison courses? Which is best? Milwaukee? Kirtland?

[Ian Andrew]

Ian you seem to know a lot about the Colt designs. How would you rate the top 5 US Alison courses? Which is best? Milwaukee? Kirtland?

I haven't seen either you have mentioned, so unfortuneately I'm of no help.


I forgot to include the fact that he bunkered Weston Golf & Country Club (also in Toronto) in 1922. Willie Park Jr. grassed the current course without bunkers and was set to finish up in 1922, but went home due to illness and Alison was brought in to finish the project. Thompson and Alison were very good friends according to Cornish (interview I did many years back with Geoff).

[Jeff_Mingay]

Hamilton is the best of the two Colts

- routing is intact for the front and most of back
- some spectcacular holes
- 13th (excellent hole) is a 90 degree shift by W. Diddle
- 14th and 15th are altered (1st green of 3rd nine is the old 15th green location)
- I count 8 rebuilt greens
- bunkers are not what they once were either

well worth seeing - Alison consulted there

Ian,

The angle of the 16th tee shot (par 3), played to the original Colt green site, is changed as well. Along with restoring a bunker style more consistent with the course's vintage, the greatest thing that could happen at Ancaster is restoration of the 14th, 15th and 16th holes. And, it's very possible.

[Ian Andrew]

Jeff,

Your correct about the angle on the 16th.

Did I ever send you Diddle's plan to change other holes?
The 5th would have been one of the casualties.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I think I recall seeing the Diddle plan, Ian. But I don't have a copy.

You were suppose to send me Alison's report for Toronto Golf Club, too... never got it

[Niall Hay]

Is Toronto pure Colt? Most pure in North America? Hamilton as well or with Alison?

[Tom MacWood]

Colt made three trips to N. America - 1911, 1913 and 1914. He produced five original designs: Toronto, CC of Detroit (NLE), Pine Valley, Old Elm and Hamilton. He also redesigned about ten course, give or take one or two. Alison came over around 1920 and was very active for almost decade. He designed close to 25 original golf courses in the States and Canada. The great majority of Colt & Alison courses over here are Alison's.

[Niall Hay]

Tom, great insight. Can you give more detail with regards to CC of Detroit (NLE?)?

Also, is there a list of the Alison designs in NA? 

[Niall Hay]

NLE = No Longer Exists?

What is the story with CCD?

[Tom MacWood]

I'll see if I can put together a list of Alison's NA designs.

NLE=no longer exists

Colt's CC of Detroit was replaced by Alison's CC of Detroit in 1927. I've seen some claim Alison's course was redesign or incorpoated holes from the original course, but I don't believe that is the case. The site for the Alison course (the current course) is more inland and the Colt course was adjacent to Lake St. Clair.

http://www.ccofd.com/default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=237773&ssid=91971&vnf=1

[Niall Hay]

Great stuff, where can one find out more information about things like this? CCD in particular? I also had heard that several of the early holes and some of the par 3 course holes had some original Colt.

[Tom MacWood]

I'll see if I have anything about CCD. That makes more sence regarding the par-3 course (incorporating some of the Colt course) since it is on the eastern edge of the current property, nearest Lake St. Clair.

[Niall Hay]

Rumors were that the “old” course existed on the water it was compared to the likes of Shinnecock and National….granted this came from a member…but was supposed to be pretty awesome.

[Tom MacWood]

CH Alison

York Downs, Kirtland, Burning Tree, Briargate (IL), Westwood, Lakeville (NY), Plum Hollow, Century, Canoe Brook, Bob O'Link, North Shore, Timber Point, Knollwood, St. Andrews Bay, Orchard Lake, CC of Detroit, Colony, Lost Nation, Old Oaks, Baederwood, Park, Sea Island, Milwaukee.

[SL_Solow]

Briergate is now Briarwood.

[Niall Hay]

CH Alison

York Downs, Kirtland, Burning Tree, Briargate (IL), Westwood, Lakeville (NY), Plum Hollow, Century, Canoe Brook, Bob O'Link, North Shore, Timber Point, Knollwood, St. Andrews Bay, Orchard Lake, CC of Detroit, Colony, Lost Nation, Old Oaks, Baederwood, Park, Sea Island, Milwaukee.

Wow, many more than expected and many I've never heard of.  So back to the initial question, which are considered the best?

Milwaukee, Kirtland, CC of D, Sea Island (still intact?), Burning Tree? How good a course is BT? Great locker room and very private, but how is the course? Also, many claim Plum Hollow is not an Alison or even C&A. Any story there? Lastly, will CCD still be an Alison post Doak?
 

[SL_Solow]

Colt & Co. Fred Hawtree's biography of Colt has a listing of all the courses purportedly designed by the various Colt associations including Colt, Alison, MacKenzie, and Morrison.  He had access to Colt's correspondence which may have aided his listing.

His list for Alison is slightly different than Wayne's.  for example, he shows Bob o"Link as a revision in 1924 to ross' original.  This comports with the club's view.  Interestingly, he omits Plum Hollow although I know some informed members who insiist it is an Allison.  Coenish and Whitten  credit it to Wilfred Reid and William Conellan.  Lakeville is now Fresh Meadow. There are several that Hawtree lists as NLE and others that are on his list that I knw no longer exist e.g. Deerfield,Il and Knollmead in Lake Forest IL.

Neither source lists Lost Nation or St. Andrews Bay.  Sea Island appears to be an amalgam where he revised a 9 (Plantation) and adde the Seaside 9 in 1928.

[DMoriarty]

Regarding Country Club of Detroit, the Brooklyn Daily Eagle ran hole by hole diagrams before the 1915 US Amateur. (Clipped from fultonhistory.com.)

[DMoriarty]

And . . .

[Niall Hay]

Colt & Co. Fred Hawtree's biography of Colt has a listing of all the courses purportedly designed by the various Colt associations including Colt, Alison, MacKenzie, and Morrison.  He had access to Colt's correspondence which may have aided his listing.

His list for Alison is slightly different than Wayne's.  for example, he shows Bob o"Link as a revision in 1924 to ross' original.  This comports with the club's view.  Interestingly, he omits Plum Hollow although I know some informed members who insiist it is an Allison.  Coenish and Whitten  credit it to Wilfred Reid and William Conellan.  Lakeville is now Fresh Meadow. There are several that Hawtree lists as NLE and others that are on his list that I knw no longer exist e.g. Deerfield,Il and Knollmead in Lake Forest IL.

Neither source lists Lost Nation or St. Andrews Bay.  Sea Island appears to be an amalgam where he revised a 9 (Plantation) and adde the Seaside 9 in 1928.

Yeshiva, I've heard from several people "in the know" who say Plum Hollow is NOT an Alison (or Colt).

[Niall Hay]

And . . .

These are awesome. Looks like non of this course is intact.

[Tom_Doak]

The 18th hole was a 185-yard par-3 with an island green surrounded by sand?

In 1915??

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