[Kyle Henderson]

When Kyle says you don't want to be long and left on 4 I think it is a bit misleading because at least it is a place where you can find your ball.  

I think it would be more misleading to suggest that long and left is a place you do want to be. A large fraction of players would make a better score hitting 3 from the tee than 2 from the bottom of that hill.

[Kyle Henderson]

The eminently memorable 5th is a par 4 of 443 meters that curves right around a mountain of grass-laden sand.


A small patch of fairway seen from the tee lures players to the left, but tee shots must land right of the small ridge in the fairway to avoid bouncing into the bush or carrying the short grass entirely. Big hitters can aim well right to shorten the hole.


Once around the corner, the heaving fairway works towards a green perched against the river.


A view of the hole from above.


This is naturalistic design at its finest.


Those able to cut off some distance over the corner will have a much better chance of reaching the green in two, especially with the wind coming in from the right.


The large green is open to long, running approach shots and tilted toward the front/right corner.


Here is a rearward view of Lost Farm’s 5th green from across the river (near Barnbougle Dunes 15th tee).

[Patrick Kiser]

Without question one of my favorite holes at LF.

Here's the deal though, it's a fine line for the drive.  As Kyle points out, if you refuse to go over the dune and keep it left ... you might consider 3W if you're a straight hitter or bust out your power fade.  But who wants to go 3W on this?  No one.  I got hosed with driver going down just left of the dune but to the right of the ridge in my afternoon round.  Perfect drive or so I thought.  It went through the fairway is our only explanation.  In the morning round I challenged the dune and went right over the top where the roundish bush is.  Nowhere to be found and we think it got caught up somewhere on the way down.  I'm positive I cleared the top, but it's a long way after that to clear the ball onto the fairway.  That's because the dune runs somewhat diagonally (almost parallel when you look a Kyle's pic from above).  I like how you get a good look at the hole on your way from the 4th (or even 3rd to the 4th).  I did not take advantage of that obviously.

The approach is very cool to that nestled green perched up and in to the right of the scrub.  Lots of fun putts up there.

I'll post a couple later, but from the tee ... you can see the opening around the dune to the right that would take you into the green.  It's mowed and shaved Brazilian style from that angle and you can see this from the tee and across the way from BD.  I'll bet anything with a wind like there was on Thursday that someone with some distance could give it a go from that angle.  

I'll go on a limb and say the stretch from the 3rd through the 5th is up there at the top.

[Bill Brightly]

For those not familar with this hole, Kyle's first two photos are not from the tee, but rather, slightly to the left so he can show you more of the hole.
While I think the second shot and the green complex are superb, I have doubts about the blind tee shot, which asks you to pick a spot on the huge dune to carry. I'll throw this out to the group for opinions:

Do you think a blind tee shot works well on a dogleg, especially on a destination course? I played with  Patrick  Kiiser and we both hit excellent tee shots over the center of the hill. Both went right through the fairway into the marrum, my ball never to be seen again. I really think a bunker should have been placed on the outside of this fairway to prevent this. Thoughts?

[Patrick Kiser]

I really think a bunker should have been placed on the outside of this fairway to prevent this. Thoughts?

Bill,

Agreed    I think a bunker like the one on the 1st on the opposite side of the fairway would help.

That or clearing up more of the brush and keeping it at the same rough length, so you can find your ball. 

I'm curious to know how many experienced the same result.

[David_Elvins]

David:

Par-3's are not supposed to be my strong suit, either.  But, saying a hole at Barnbougle really needs wind is kind of pointless ... how many days have you played there where there wasn't a good wind?
[/quote]
Tom,
It's par 5s that aren't your strong point, not par 3s.  

The majority of rounds I have played at Barnbougle have been less than 2 clubs. I have played more than 14 rounds. It is noticeable that the 7th hole at bd is a demanding shot on a still day.   The 4th at lf is not. Not by a long way. I think great holes are great in a variety of conditions.  The Bowled green at 4 makes the tee shot unchallenging on a still day. The marram close to the green makes it penal on a windy day, I suspect.

[David_Elvins]

It is pretty good evidence for the argument that par 3s aren't Coore's strong point, IMO.  

David

 I'd be interested as to how many C&C courses you have now seen to make that statement ?

Kevin, read it more closely. The argument is not mine. Just pointing out that this hole supports those that make the argument, imo.

[Bill Brightly]

I really think a bunker should have been placed on the outside of this fairway to prevent this. Thoughts?

Bill,

Agreed    I think a bunker like the one on the 1st on the opposite side of the fairway would help.

That or clearing up more of the brush and keeping it at the same rough length, so you can find your ball.  

I'm curious to know how many experienced the same result.

Patrick, not to be picky, but I found YOUR ball...You went a few feet to the left of the peak of the dune and still got screwed. MY BALL went over the dead center of the peak and I killed it, never to be seen again...My problem with this hole is that everyone must pick a (blind) line. Yeah, i know its only blind once...but when you fly 16 hours and lose a ball on a caeer drive...

[David_Elvins]

Patrick, Bill,

I believe the course spuperintendent said that they were clearing out vegetation through the fairway and intending to clear out some more.  Maybe the middle tee is a bit pokey for the drive?  There are a few back tees that arent used, I think, one right up near 4 green.

I think it is the one hole at Lost Farm that is unquestionably great.  The diagonal ridge in the driving area is a great feature, the approach is spectacular and the green extreme in its contours.  Loved it. 

[Bill Brightly]

I am pretty sure this is a picture of the approach to the 5th green from the left side of the fairway, where Patrick and I had to drop...You can see that the hole is gorgeous and is crafted beautifully from the land. I just have doubts that it can be called "great" when a significant % of the players will be taking drops from the gorse on the left. But I may just be whining...I just think a fairway bunker placed right about where you see the white plate,  framing the outside of the landing area, would make the hole so much better. I am not making par, but at least I am not dropping.

Also note the Raynor-like slope on the bank to the right of the green. A number of CGAers commented on this and we wondered if Coore has built others greens like this, or maybe this was just a natural land form?

[Kyle Henderson]

I am pretty sure this is a picture of the approach to the 5th green from the left side of the fairway, where Patrick and I had to drop...You can see that the hole is gorgeous and is crafted beautifully from the land. I just have doubts that it can be called "great" when a significant % of the players will be taking drops from the gorse on the left. But I may just be whining...I just think a fairway bunker placed right about where you see the white plate,  framing the outside of the landing area, would make the hole so much better. I am not making par, but at least I am not dropping.

Also note the Raynor-like slope on the bank to the right of the green. A number of CGAers commented on this and we wondered if Coore has built others greens like this, or maybe this was just a natural land form?

Bill,
I'm pretty sure that picture is of hole #8...

[Sven Nilsen]

One of my favorite holes anywhere.  Only regret is we didn't get to play to a top shelf pin.

I can see how others might not like the tee shot, but for me it fit my eye.  The idea of picking a spot up on hillside as an aiming point and trying to keep the ball from moving right of that line worked for my game. 

Brett Morrissey pointed out the Keiser tee on the north side of the 4th green.  Would make for an amazing hole by lengthening the drive and opening up the fairway a bit.

This is another hole where a strong wind makes a difference.  On Thursday it seemed like the helping (yet slightly crossing wind) served to protect balls from going right.  It also shortened the hole a bit and made the approach a little easier.  Not sure of the green sizes at LF, but this has to be one of the biggest, thus finding the putting surface by no means guarantees a par.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Bill, Kyle is correct  - that is the approach on 8.

I was fortunate not to be bitten by " long left off the tee" - I think for competent golfers that tee box is a bit cramped at the driving zone and then brings into question the 'legitimacy' of the blind tee shot.
Whereas, back to the black tee, it then becomes cut off some of the blind corner, OR hit it toward the FW that is visible on the left and you shouldn't be able to make the lost ball area.

Dave is correct, the super said along with a little thinning, clearing, they were going to grow some of the FW  turf down the to make a deeper first cut, to pull your ball ip before the marram and bush

Clayts is the one I read said that from the tiny tee to the North of the 4th green, this may be the best  P4 in OZ, Clayts correct me if that is not stated accurately. I think that would be a great tee to be in play.

Some of our group thought it was helpful when golfers on 4 tee, watched our tee shots to confirm they were ok.

I too think this is a spectacular hole, do not care about the blindness, it adds to the intrigue, for mine, it is the uncertainty and not complete commitment to the shot that will usually result in a lost ball. Debate on the tee as to the line to take is great fun.

I know some pretty big hitters, but none of them can take on the right side of the dune carry to that Brazillian turf that Pat is fond of!

I too was very keen to see a back pin, so it was only dismay felt the foolwing and last day at Batnbougle coming down 14 to see the back pin in play after we'd left!

As beautiful a site as 4 is for the par 3, I agree in mild conditions, which as I have stated earlier is a frequent occurrence for my trips to BD, for me it lacks teeth (I'd have preferred a hole like 6 located on Sally's Point), it feels as though the first run of 4 holes are still easing me into the round, I love shorter holes, but feel like a few of the starting holes would benefit from black tees or as suggested, swapping the two P3's 4 & 6 locales.

Of course with a club or more prevailing, there is no issue with these first four holes, which I am sure is one of the biggest issues the builders have to deal with on a coastal routing like this - how to balance benign vs strong breeze playability.

[Scott Warren]

Brett:

Clayts is the one I read said that from the tiny tee to the North of the 4th green, this may be the best  P4 in OZ, Clayts correct me if that is not stated accurately. I think that would be a great tee to be in play.

I believe Mike's comment was "that's the best golf hole in Australia that isn't a golf hole" and it was made while standing on the 4th tee and looking down towards the 5th green.

I may be wrong.

[Matthew Delahunty]

Scott,

My recollection of the comment was it referred to the spot north of the fourth green.

I thought that 5 and 8 were the standout holes on the front nine.  The only reservation I have with this hole (and I will need to play it a few more times) is that the tier running diagonally from front left to the back (creating the back left shelf) is possibly too severe for a back right pin position, given that the average golfer will be approaching this green with a long iron or fairway wood in hand.

[Patrick Kiser]

Couple of pics as promised.  Check out the first pic to the very far right of the fescued dune (sorry for the bright sun)...  You can see the flag from the tee.  Then the second for the mowed ridge to the left of the fescue covered dune.

[Kevin Pallier]

It is pretty good evidence for the argument that par 3s aren't Coore's strong point, IMO.  

David

 I'd be interested as to how many C&C courses you have now seen to make that statement ?

Kevin, read it more closely. The argument is not mine. Just pointing out that this hole supports those that make the argument, imo.

David

I found it odd that you of all people would be prepared to make a claim of that sort IMO without having seen a few C&C course hence why I asked  

[James Bennett]

One of my favorite holes anywhere.  Only regret is we didn't get to play to a top shelf pin.

Pin was there the next day Sven, on the Monday!

[David_Elvins]

David

I found it odd that you of all people would be prepared to make a claim of that sort IMO without having seen a few C&C course hence why I asked  

I think you are being a bit of a trouble maker, Kev.  I already explained that I did not make the claim, but others have. Patrick Kiser being one of them who is contributing to this thread.  I have only seen 4 C&C courses so withold judgement for now.  But 4 and 15 and maybe 17 are underachievements in design IMO and support the opinion of Patrick and others.

[Kevin Pallier]

David

Pot calling kettle ?

The only real dog at Lost Farm for mine is 18a - they shouldn't have bothered building it. Would be interested to hear you explore your thoughts  - maybe on another thread re: C&C as after all - I've never known you to sit on the fence ? 

[David_Elvins]

David

Pot calling kettle ?

The only real dog at Lost Farm for mine is 18a - they shouldn't have bothered building it. Would be interested to hear you explore your thoughts  - maybe on another thread re: C&C as after all - I've never known you to sit on the fence ? 

Agree with you on 18a, Kevin.  It will be a chipping green within a few years, IMO.  There is a big difference between a dog and an underachievement though.  I haven't seen C&C build a bad hole on any of the courses I have played. 

[Kyle Henderson]

The 6th is a par 3 of 155 meters, playing a touch downhill and with the wind typically blowing from left to right.


The green is generously proportioned with a bunker on the front/right.


While the bunker’s lip will punish poor sand play, it can be even more punishing to those unable to flop a high, soft pitch from a tight fairway lie short of the trap.


Recovery shots are much simpler from the front/left corner…


…although this day’s flag position, viewed from the right edge of the green, is just beyond a vexing ripple in the putting surface.


The right side of the green is tilted from front-to-back, adding further complication to club selection when the pin is tucked behind the bunker.

[Bill Brightly]

At this point in the round, I am glad that I had a breather hole on #2...I hit what I thought was a decent iron to the green, only to be on the wrong side of the "vexing ridge" that Kyle described above. I had a 25 foot putt, and literally no way to get it near the hole. After crossing the ridge I would have had way too much pace on the ball from the downslope to get it within 10 feet...So I tried putting off the back of the green and hoped the slope would bring it back towards the cup. Bogey.

I have not played enough C & C greens to prove this, but I got the feeling that this was one green where Bill Coore was influenced by neighboring BD and "went for it" with the construction of this green.

[Scott Warren]

Bill,

I left myself the same putt and tried the backboard play as well.

It's a great green, IMO. Perfect for the mid-iron you're likely to have in and the width of the green suits the prevailing crosswind.

[James Bennett]

I think the hole is best described as having two greens, a left hand and a right hand green.  The 'ridge splits the two effective greens apart with a severe hazard.

The pin played in the Boomerang was on the left edge of the right hand green.  Woe betide you if you went left!  yes you avoided the bunker, but the recovery putt was more difficult.

It may be that the penalty of the ridge diminishes over time if the fescue component in the greens takes off.  IMO, the Lost Farm greens (which have some bent in them for initial establishment) play faster than those across the stream at Barnbougle. 

Pup had the putt from the wrong green, and with our encouragement, took 4.  He saw the backboard play and didn't take it.  His practice shot immediately afterwards executed a perfect backboard play!

Local knowledge is indeed at play on what appears to be a benign pin position.


James B

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