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George Pazin

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #75 on: April 13, 2011, 10:21:08 AM »
One thing's for sure: Cobbs Creek has really warped what you Philly guys consider a muni! Inniscrone is nowhere close. Come on.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Joe Bausch

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #76 on: April 13, 2011, 10:37:47 AM »
One thing's for sure: Cobbs Creek has really warped what you Philly guys consider a muni! Inniscrone is nowhere close. Come on.

It is owned by the local township!  Thank goodness, I say, that it failed as a private course.   ;D
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Andy Hughes

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #77 on: April 13, 2011, 11:07:05 AM »
I had a fun day at Inniscrone (other than having to watch JBausch blast it by me every hole  ;)), and thought the course had a number of fun and interesting holes. Yes, 10 felt like a hole I could have created but is 5 really that bad? Maybe growing up with the 77 yarder at Pocono Manor innoculated me but it didn't bother me (other than the backtrap felt odd but how big a deal is that?). And I sure felt like there were plenty of of good holes to make the fun/cost factor a big winner.

Hard for me to believe people dislike the course because of those 2 holes--I must have enjoyed the other 16 much more than others did.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

George Pazin

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #78 on: April 13, 2011, 11:22:50 AM »
One thing's for sure: Cobbs Creek has really warped what you Philly guys consider a muni! Inniscrone is nowhere close. Come on.

It is owned by the local township!  Thank goodness, I say, that it failed as a private course.   ;D

Somehow I don't think that's what was meant...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

mike_malone

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #79 on: April 13, 2011, 11:55:04 AM »
 Doug,

    I think that the average person forms their opinion mostly on how they feel while playing a course. Some of that feel comes from a preconceived notion of what makes a good golf course. My discussions with people lead me to believe that conditioning is the number one issue, followed by not being tricked or unconventionality, then how they played and whether it was a nice day. While architecture is involved in these things very few see it as an separate or important item.

    I think that the average person can be intimidated into saying they like something they actually did not like much by public opinion or the authority of a revered expert. So, when people hear that Inniscrone isn't that good they are comfortable with their own experience.

  GCA guys seem , on average , to go easy on their favored architects.


   Why do we make excuses for Hanse when all we can do is play the course that is there?
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #80 on: April 13, 2011, 12:10:22 PM »
  Here are a few observations from my fictional average guy :

    #1 scrufty bunkers---why did they put them there?

     #2 where do I hit it ? and the green sits down below me wtf?

      #3 my wedge didn't hold the green, yo!

     #4  too narrow and I busted a drive that went in the crap!!!

     #5  I hit a good shot and it went over the green

     #7 What's with the bunker right where I want to hit my tee shot?

      #10    I think I hate this course





AKA Mayday

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #81 on: April 13, 2011, 12:34:38 PM »
Mike, I don't think we always make excuses, although, I do concur with you, if one knows someone personally, it can be easier to make allowances where one would normally criticize.  I don't know Gil, but he has been at 1 or 2 of the GCA events at Tom's house most of us here attended.  But, it seems like the "favored architects" have the spirit of the ODG courses that we typically enjoy, and work to create courses that make people think.  Some people don't want to think, they just want to be rewarded. 

Is Inniscrone very different from Applebrook?  The aerials look a lot different, IGC looks more similar to FC in terms of terrain and layout than AGC. 

Scrufty bunkers?  Hmm...they're at Merion, and a few other places, now a lot of Philadelphia courses want bunkers like that now!

Is Glen Mills a lot more "in front of you" than Inniscrone? (I have not been there and am making no comparison)

Inniscrone is definately polarizing.  Like Lederach, which is to say, in a good way. 

Nobody has really come forward and presented alternative ideas for 5 and 10. 

Mike, getting back to your comment on 7 in your last post, I think about this tee shot as the "Ross/Flynn" hybrid strategy I mentioned I think on page 1; that is, you can play to the left off the tee, away from the hidden bunker, and then contend with the bunkers on the 2nd shot.  Alternatively, you can play right (and, multiple plays probably will give the player the best line to take here) and, assuming you hit the fairway, have a relatively unencumbered 2nd shot to layup or go for the green.  Although, the green axis (from the aerial) seems to point in the direction of the bunkers. 

I see what you're saying about "average guy" comments. Steve S shared similar ones from his experiences at Lederach, comments similar to what I received from people I met through GAP as well as other organizations.  People are entitled to their opinions.   

I concur with you, we can play the course that is there. 
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 12:55:23 PM by Doug Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

George Pazin

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #82 on: April 13, 2011, 01:10:19 PM »
  Here are a few observations from my fictional average guy :

    #1 scrufty bunkers---why did they put them there?

     #2 where do I hit it ? and the green sits down below me wtf?

      #3 my wedge didn't hold the green, yo!

     #4  too narrow and I busted a drive that went in the crap!!!

     #5  I hit a good shot and it went over the green

     #7 What's with the bunker right where I want to hit my tee shot?

      #10    I think I hate this course

You didn't help your case with these.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JNC Lyon

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #83 on: April 13, 2011, 01:51:37 PM »
  Here are a few observations from my fictional average guy :

    #1 scrufty bunkers---why did they put them there?

     #2 where do I hit it ? and the green sits down below me wtf?

      #3 my wedge didn't hold the green, yo!

     #4  too narrow and I busted a drive that went in the crap!!!

     #5  I hit a good shot and it went over the green

     #7 What's with the bunker right where I want to hit my tee shot?

      #10    I think I hate this course

You didn't help your case with these.

Yes, they kind of remind of the story I read on here about the guy who didn't like Pine Valley because it didn't have cartpaths.  How much does the average golfer know about golf course architecture, and should we even listen to what he has to say?

Note: if you post or lurk on Golf Club Atlas, you are NOT an average golfer.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Kyle Harris

Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #84 on: April 13, 2011, 04:28:21 PM »
Here are a few observations from my fictional average guy :

    #1 scrufty bunkers---why did they put them there?
You see them, stay away

     #2 where do I hit it ? and the green sits down below me wtf?
Down the middle, duh
      #3 my wedge didn't hold the green, yo!
Don't hit wedge
     #4  too narrow and I busted a drive that went in the crap!!!
The corridor is 70 yards wide
     #5  I hit a good shot and it went over the green
Then you didn't hit a good shot
     #7 What's with the bunker right where I want to hit my tee shot?
Why do you want to drive it in a bunker?


There, I just dropped 5 strokes from your score. A PGA Pro could charge $140 for that playing lesson.

JJShanley

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #85 on: December 09, 2015, 01:03:15 PM »
I played Inniscrone for the first time over Thanksgiving.  I don't think it had gone public until after I left Chester County in 2009.  In addition to it being my first Hanse course, it also afforded me my first opportunity to use limited flight range balls and a gasoline cart.


It had taken a beating from the recent weather, most notably in the soft, pockmarked greens.  The current clientele didn't seem to bother with repairing ball marks or even divots on par-3 tees.  The golf carts made chatting to my playing partner (whom I asked to join me in the parking lot) difficult.  I suppose the terrain necessitates them.


That said: I enjoyed the course.  It has some quirk, to the extent that it favorably reminded me of Braid Hills in Edinburgh, but I'd go back there in dryer conditions.  It took me a few holes to get used to the more open nature of the green sites, where transition from fairway to green didn't seem as obvious as the courses I typically play.  I'd walk the next time.

Malcolm Mckinnon

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #86 on: December 10, 2015, 12:26:58 AM »
I'm curious.



We have a flat in the Morningside area of Edinburgh as my daughter studies Veterinary Medicine at the University there and I have not yet played Braid Hills. Drove up there one day in a gale and looked around.


A bit frumpy was my impression but looked interesting and a strenuous walk but I am always up for that.


Should I give it a try? Also, I am From New York, USA and got the feeling that most players I saw were working class Scots. Worried that I might get paired up with some hostile partners. I have discovered that my Scottish name does not necessarily win over the locals.


It's strange but I would never have the same worry in East Lothain or Fife.


Also, FYI, played Inniscrone ages ago and really liked it. Not a good walking course, however.










« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 09:32:44 PM by Malcolm Mckinnon »

Michael Graham

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #87 on: December 10, 2015, 04:21:06 AM »
I'm curious.



We have a flat in the Morningside area of Edinburgh as my daughter studies Veterinary Medicine at he University there and I have not yet played Braid Hills. Drove up there one day in a gale and looked around.


A bit frumpy was my impression but looked interesting and a strenuous walk but I am always up for that.


Should I give it a try? Also, I am From New York, USA and got the feeling that most players I saw were working class Scots. Worried that I might get paired up with some hostile partners. I have discovered that my Scottish name does not necessarily win over the locals.


It's strange but I would never have the same worry in East Lothain or Fife.


Also, FYI, played Inniscrone ages ago and really liked it. Not a good walking course, however.


Malcolm,


Can I ask what your concerns are should you get paired up with a local?


The Braid Hills is a council run course which has at least three but possibly four golf clubs that play over the course. You're right in that the majority of golfers playing at the Braids are "working class Scots" but I'd be very surprised if you were met with any sort of hostility. Let me know the next time you are in Edinburgh and I'd be happy to join you for a round.


Learning the game, the Braid Hills was one of the first courses my father took my brother and I so it has always had a special place in my heart. The conditioning is to be expected of a municipal course, the facilities are limited to say the least and it is quite an arduous walk but once you get to the higher points of the course and get the sweeping views of the city,East Lothian and Fife in the distance you'll be glad you took your life in your hands with the locals.


Michael

Niall C

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #88 on: December 10, 2015, 05:08:42 AM »
Malcolm


How does your daughter manage going to and from her flat to the College ? Does she have a personal bodyguard or does she buddy up with other foreigners and upper class Scots to make sure she doesn't get harassed by the lower order ?


With regards to Braid Hills maybe you should try writing to the Council explaining your situation and perhaps they will close the course especially so you could play alone. A bit like the big expensive shops do for VIP's.


Ever helpfully


Yours


Niall

Malcolm Mckinnon

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #89 on: December 10, 2015, 10:57:21 AM »
Hey wait a minute! I have played many rounds with the locals around Scotland and had a blast! Overall we have found Edinburgh to be exceptionally welcoming.


Have you been to the Grey Horse Inn on Dalkeith Road in Newington? My daughter's prior flat was across the street and I can tell you that wandering in as a friendly American and striking up conversation with the locals did not go over well.


For some reason I got the same vibe watching some of the golfers at Braid Hills.


As for Morningside, no she does not find the mums and prams and the posh oldsters very intimidating.


« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 09:30:43 PM by Malcolm Mckinnon »

Niall C

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #90 on: December 10, 2015, 11:28:21 AM »
Malcolm


Clearly I was having some sport so don't take it to heart.


Striking up a conversation in a "local" pub can be a bit of a hit or miss affair. I suspect that's not unique to Edinburgh or Scotland.


Re playing golf at muni's, I suspect that Braids is no different to most others in that the golfing etiquette of some might be a bit rough and ready. There are also some who don't want to be paired up with someone they don't know and in that respect muni's are no different than private clubs. As for working class, what does that mean in this day and age ? I might have gone to college/uni and have a degree, am a professional and have an office job but I still have to work to pay the bills so I suppose I'm working class and I'd still be happy to play with you !


In short, give it a go and even if you end up wit some uncommunicative hacker, you can still enjoy the course.


Niall 

MCirba

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #91 on: December 10, 2015, 11:40:52 AM »
I would say to my Scottish friends and internet acquaintances that I've played golf with Malcolm McKinnon and despite some sideways, untoward glances he gave my worst shots, he didn't beat me up or otherwise physically strike me although it may have been well-deserved at times.  ;)

He also has very good taste in choosing pubs and restaurants, so you may consider that to be a plus as well.   :)

 
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Michael Graham

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #92 on: December 10, 2015, 11:44:47 AM »
Hey wait a minute! I have played many rounds with the locals around Scotland and had a blast! Overall we have found Edinburgh to be exceptionally welcoming.


Have you been to the Grey Horse Inn on Dalkeith Road in Newington? My daughter's prior flat was across the street and I can tell you that wandering in as a freindly American and striking up conversation with the locals did not go over well.


For some reason I got the same vibe watching some of the golfers at Braid Hills.


As for Morningside, no she does not find the mums and prams and the posh oldsters very intimidating.

In fairness I've spent all of my 31 years in the south side of Edinburgh and even I would think twice about going into the Grey Horse Inn. I don't know if anyone will remember the scene in Trainspotting where the American tourists go into the pub only to be relieved of their belongings but the Grey Horse has that sort of vibe.

Malcolm Mckinnon

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #93 on: December 11, 2015, 12:45:30 AM »
Michael,

Let's play together next time I am in Edinburgh! Niall, where are you located?

How about some Edinburgh seasonal spirit from just a few weeks ago! I was wandering about the Christmas Fair with a mug of warm mulled wine and a shot of brandy!

I love Edinburgh! Merry Christmas!


DSC00654 by Malcolm Mckinnon, on Flickr
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 01:09:23 AM by Malcolm Mckinnon »

Joe Bausch

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #94 on: December 11, 2015, 05:07:36 AM »
Updated album, including changes to the 16th hole.


http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/Inniscrone/
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Chris Mavros

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #95 on: December 12, 2015, 07:31:58 PM »
The changes to the Sixteenth weren't as fatal to the identity of the course as I was afraid of.  Some of the teeth have been dulled, but it still holds my interest. 

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #96 on: August 17, 2018, 07:35:45 AM »
Played it yesterday after a dropping off my son for college.


After an interesting couple of weeks of golf including a Hanse redo of Westhampton CC (NY) (loved it), I was disappointed at Inniscrone. Sure Hanse had his signature stuff on the front, but at $38 including cart, the course just can't sustain the amount of play at that price point.


The open farm holes were in fine shape, just a little wet from the recent rain. But the holes in the trees were just beyond the point of playability. I got to the 10th hole after walking the front, and it was really backed up. I looked at grabbing a cart with my partner (who carted the front), but it looked like it was impossible to get around the groups by jumping in front of them. Thus, I bailed on the round.


It was a long week in a good golf way, so Philly defenders, this is not a shot at a Hanse design. Just a reality that not every 200 acre property is good for a golf course.


Doak 3
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

George Pazin

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #97 on: August 17, 2018, 11:21:56 AM »
Can you give a rating if you didn't play half of the course? :)


I'd guess 10 was backed up because of the awkward tee shot, but maybe that's just me. It's a shame, you missed out on some fun holes.


Re: some 200 acres aren't suitable, you play the hand you're dealt. I'd agree if it were a mountain and canyon strewn monstrosity - what was that course in Cali that Huck loved (and by loved, I mean hated...)? But Inniscrone is nowhere near that.


One thing is for certain - if Inniscrone is your idea of an average course, I need to hang out with you!
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #98 on: August 17, 2018, 03:52:43 PM »
Can you give a rating if you didn't play half of the course? :)



Talk to Tom Doak, he made a fortune with cart tours of golf courses !!  ;)


Just re-looked at the Doak Scale, and I would change it to a Doak 4.


Not sure when you last visited Inniscrone, but conditioning on the forest holes was a real issue. I played Bethpage Black pre-Rees, and have played Yale for years, so I am pretty open minded about conditioning.


At the end of the day, would 2018-Gil Hanse take on that project? He does not seem like a guy driven by money, so even a big check would probably not bring him back to that property. I was a big fan of NLE-Tallgrass, so I see the features that he was trying to bring to the property.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Joe Bausch

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #99 on: August 17, 2018, 06:22:27 PM »
11 thru 16 at Inniscrone are very strong.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection