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JNC Lyon

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Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« on: April 09, 2011, 10:10:30 PM »
With Kyle H as tour guide, I had a hell of a day of golf in Philly.  We played the duo of Inniscrone and Paxon Hollow today, and while we nearly followed it with an extra nine at Jeffersonville or an extra 18 at Walnut Lane (either one would have been doable in hindsight), the 36 hole journey was plenty of architecture for one day.

Paxon Hollow is a sporty track with a ton of great stuff going on, and it will definitely get some discussion later on.  However, the course I really want to talk about with the treehouse is Gil Hanse's Inniscrone in Avondale, Pennsylvania.

Inniscrone is a remarkable place for several reasons.  It was originally founded as an exclusive private club for the Philly/Wilmington, DE area.  The course was then sold and went through several ownership changes and talks of restoration.  Now, it is owned by the local township and open for public play at reasonable rates.  Inniscrone was one of the first profiles I read from Ran this site, and it was one of those profiles that inspired me and showed me that there was some great golf architecture outside the magazine rankings.  With that background, I got to play the course for the first time today and was thoroughly impressed.

Gil Hanse's work at Inniscrone is exactly what I am looking for in a golf course.  Throughout my short experience with golf architecture, I have always been conflicted between the courses with heavy drama and quirk and those with more subtlety.  Addington is a hell of a course, but the quirky and dramatic features wear the player out after awhile.  On the other hand, a course like Swinley Forest is filled with understated elegance, but it runs a little short on the drama.  Inniscrone finds a great balance between these two types of courses.  With the first three holes, the golfer is introduced to Gil Hanse's understated style.  He has limited bunkering, strategy that is exceedingly simple but timeless, and designs greens with one or two dominant contours.  The course follows the lay of the land, particularly in the placement of the bunkers and the contour of the greens. 

The 3rd at Inniscrone is one of my absolute favorite holes on the course.  The dramatic fairway bunkering draws the golfer's eye to left first, and since this is a short par four, the golfer will be tempted to rip driver at the green.  Of course, the best play is to the higher right side of the fairway.  This position leaves a look right down the throat of the green, and the best drives may even catch the slope of the fairway and trundle onto the green.  Yet no matter where the golfer leaves his tee shot, the fun is only starting.  The green at Inniscrone's 3rd is impressive in its simplicity.  It slopes slightly from front to back and follows the cant of the land from right to left.  The green is not manufactured or contrived to be overly difficult.  It is just there, an integral part of the land.  The green's uncompromising naturalism makes any approach shot fearsome, as the golfer has to place in the right spot or face a high number on the course's shortest par four.  The 3rd hole relies on brilliant use of the land and restraint to create the timeless strategy, an approach Hanse uses repeatedly in different form throughout the layout.

For all of the great subtle holes out there (3, 6, 9, 12, 13, and 15 are among the best), Inniscrone has tons of drama.  This drama begins at the 4th, which features a long forced carry from the back tee followed by a long iron approach across a valley to a brilliant shelf green.  It continues on holes like 8, a brilliant Redan where a driver from the back tees makes the kick plates pop out, 10, and 16 through 18.  Each of these holes has their detractors, as they contain features that make them difficult for the weaker player.  In my mind, this holes are brilliant because of their distribution within the course.  These holes are used sparingly and placed at the correct intervals during the routing.  The first three holes ease the golfer in before bringing on the thrill at the 4th.  The golfer gets some subtlety for the next three holes before resuming the ride at the 8th.  After a tough but brilliant 9th, the golfer gets the 10th, takes in some great architecture on the 11 through 15, and hits a dramatic flourish on the last three holes.  These holes may be tough, but they are score-able and a hell of a lot of fun if you can hit the shots.  The 17th is a giant par four with forced carries on the tee shot and the approach, but the hole is a thrill to play because of the benched greensite that allows golfers to feed in shots from right to left.  These holes are difficult and may not fit the traditionalist mold, but they add to the rugged and simple appeal of Inniscrone.

Inniscrone balances these dramatic holes and subtle, strategic holes perfectly.  The course is not an adrenaline high, but it instead shifts between the contemplative and the furious.  Hanse knew when to take a risk (the 9th, with its ridgeline bunkering and bunkerless green, is a great example), and he knew when to leave well enough alone.  He routes the course perfectly, never straining the course's flow despite the constraints of the property.  Despite the recent development along the course, the golfer feels at one with the land throughout.  Inniscrone never tries too hard; it just steps back and lets the golfer take it in.

Is Inniscrone the model for what architecture should be?  Is it a critical study in minimalist architecture?
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Jason Walker

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2011, 10:22:28 PM »
John-
Not sure you're gonna stir the pot here....I played Inniscrone at its peak and it left our group with a very 'strange' feeling...not sure I can offer more as it was years ago.   That said, it's also in no-mans-land PA, so I think it struggles there too.  At any rate, I'm curious to see what folks have to say as it's a place that I feel is a coin-flip away from being a mushroom farm.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2011, 07:35:51 AM »
From what I remember (and this did NOT come from Gil!), the original owner was "challenging".  Take #10 as the poster child - I don't think anybody would build that hole if they had a chance, but I was told that the owner insisted.

This is all 2nd hand information, so please don't take it as fact. 

Jason - you're right about the location, but I have a lot of faith in Lori Van Sickle's management of the place.  Lori was the head pro at DuPont and did a great job up there.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2011, 08:38:24 AM »
One of my favorite munis in the area JNC.  Here is a photo thread from 2009:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39584.0.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Sam Morrow

Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2011, 10:14:13 AM »
How far is it from downtown Philly?

Joe Bausch

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2011, 10:19:13 AM »
How far is it from downtown Philly?

Little less than an hour.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Willie_Dow

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2011, 10:38:12 AM »
Great memories of play there, Joe.

Thanks for all that work to present what the early days of Hanse and Kittleman did produce.  What a team that grew so noteable and sound, so rapidly - in this day and age - when things are tough, the cream comes to the top.

Ryan Farrow

Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2011, 10:38:37 AM »
Paxon Hollow kicks ass!   ;D ;D ;D

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2011, 04:48:42 PM »
JNC- I am glad you had a good day with Kyle.  I am sorry I couldn't join you for one of the rounds.  Sounds like you enjoyed Inniscrone.  Many here don't like it; I don't know why.  Myself, I am not a low-handicap player (I'm a 13, and I played it in November of 07, with JB), so I was certainly not in peak form to play it.  I didn't see the problems with a lot of the holes that a lot have chirped about.  It's certainly not easy; I personally think that a lot of Gil Hanse courses are hard as hell--and there probably are a few areas on the course that are questionable--but it's not bad by any stretch, it is good.  I think it's less penal than French Creek in most spots.

Played from the right set of tees for the player, it's enjoyable.  (Although, it's far, considering a lot of one's options to play closer to Philadelphia).    I don't think it's a course where one can expect to make a lot of birdies.  

I have thought about the oft-discussed #10.  Given the wetlands the hole has to traverse, would it make sense to move the tees forward, and expand the green complex, and have a driveable par 4, with the option for the shorter or weaker player to hit an iron and a wedge?  I wonder.  

15 is an outstanding par 5 if played correctly.  Wonderful center bunker complex and the green accepts a low, running approach.  

I also don't see how 16 is such a bad hole or so unfair.  I see a lot of Merion influence in this hole.  It's not as if the player is asked to hit a 3 wood to this green.  Hit a driver to the lower fw and a pitching wedge.  

What I also noticed with the fairway bunker complexes is a bit of a mix of a Flynn and Ross influence.  I am generalizing here, but my experience with Flynn fairway bunkers is that they should be avoided--play away from them for the better angle to the green (in many cases, not all).   Ross courses I have played seem to reward a player who carries a fairway bunker complex.  I see both strategies at work here.  

17 is difficult with length and wetlands.  Otherwise, playing smart, a golfer could make a scrambling par.  

18 gives both the high and low handicapper the chance to score well. 
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 11:07:18 PM by Doug Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Kyle Harris

Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2011, 05:06:45 PM »
I'll comment more later but I would like to point out that JNC and I were behind a five-some on the first nine which reduced to a four-some for the second nine and....


We. Did. Not. Wait. For. One. Shot.

Amazing.

I thanked them and offered to buy their lunch after the round.

Kyle Harris

Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2011, 05:35:06 PM »
John-
Not sure you're gonna stir the pot here....I played Inniscrone at its peak and it left our group with a very 'strange' feeling...not sure I can offer more as it was years ago.   That said, it's also in no-mans-land PA, so I think it struggles there too.  At any rate, I'm curious to see what folks have to say as it's a place that I feel is a coin-flip away from being a mushroom farm.


I don't care what your group felt.

What did YOU, Jason Walker, feel? What is the "strange" feeling?

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2011, 07:41:47 PM »
    I've expressed my thoughts on Inniscrone many times here, and won't repeat them.  But, since yet another thread's been started, I can't resist summarizing.  I think it is one of the worst courses ever built by a quality architect trying to build a quality course.  Probably the best evidence of it's worth is the fact that it utterly failed.  And don't blame the location.  Plenty of good, out of the way places have done well.  (See Stonewall in the Philly area.)  As for a hole by hole critique, I'm too lazy to do it again.  My favorite beef, of course, is with the drop kick par three (the 4th, I think).  I'm convinced that Hanse mistakenly delivered a 17 hole course, and when the error was pointed out, threw in the drop kicker.

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2011, 10:57:13 PM »
    I've expressed my thoughts on Inniscrone many times here, and won't repeat them.  But, since yet another thread's been started, I can't resist summarizing.  I think it is one of the worst courses ever built by a quality architect trying to build a quality course.  Probably the best evidence of it's worth is the fact that it utterly failed.  And don't blame the location.  Plenty of good, out of the way places have done well.  (See Stonewall in the Philly area.)  As for a hole by hole critique, I'm too lazy to do it again.  My favorite beef, of course, is with the drop kick par three (the 4th, I think).  I'm convinced that Hanse mistakenly delivered a 17 hole course, and when the error was pointed out, threw in the drop kicker.

  Jim,  if you have an axe to grind with the business model of the course, or prior ownership, that's outside of the course's architecture.  Keep it to yourself.  Did you play the course?  From which set of tees?  Something tells me something else is coloring your opinion of the course. 
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Kyle Harris

Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2011, 04:58:14 AM »
    I've expressed my thoughts on Inniscrone many times here, and won't repeat them.  But, since yet another thread's been started, I can't resist summarizing.  I think it is one of the worst courses ever built by a quality architect trying to build a quality course.  Probably the best evidence of it's worth is the fact that it utterly failed.  And don't blame the location.  Plenty of good, out of the way places have done well.  (See Stonewall in the Philly area.)  As for a hole by hole critique, I'm too lazy to do it again.  My favorite beef, of course, is with the drop kick par three (the 4th, I think).  I'm convinced that Hanse mistakenly delivered a 17 hole course, and when the error was pointed out, threw in the drop kicker.

JNC almost aced this hole, it's the fifth.

If architecture is the leading cause of success/failure then we've got a lot of wrong ideas about architecture, that's for sure. Your logic is flawed in that regard, as cum hoc egro proctor hoc is your construct.

Sean_A

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2011, 05:21:17 AM »
I recall looking at photos (probably Joe's) and thinking the course looks quite severe or dramatic as JNC would put it.  A lot of shots looked do or die with rough, bunkers, hilly terrain and wetlands(?).  In any case, Inniscrone didn't look like my sorta course, but it seems cheap enough that giving it a go can't cause too much harm.   

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2011, 07:54:32 AM »
Jim

  I think the hole in question was originally intended to be something other than what it is but some permitting issue created a problem.

Mark McKeever

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2011, 08:04:23 AM »
Inniscrone is a pretty neat golf course, but I really think its the location that's holding it down.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

John Shimony

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2011, 08:38:18 AM »
The 17th hole is like a punch in the chops because of its placement in the round.  It's long and narrow and by the time one gets to that hole their legs can be anywhere from tired to no longer functioning and to hit one long and straight at that point for me is a challenge.  I assume there is a property line up the right hand side that necessitates the narrowness.  If not then Hanse is just cruel.  
« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 08:39:59 AM by John Shimony »
John Shimony
Philadelphia, PA

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2011, 08:40:41 AM »
Jim

  I think the hole in question was originally intended to be something other than what it is but some permitting issue created a problem.

Yes, I believe the intended tee for the 5th hole was to be down and to left of the 4th green, playing to the same green now.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2011, 08:44:11 AM »
Inniscrone is a pretty neat golf course, but I really think its the location that's holding it down.

Mark

If you haven't been down to Inniscrone in a few years, you would amazed how much that area how grown.  As you exit off of Rt 1 onto 41S, there is a gigantic strip mall with a Lowe's, restaurants, etc.

Inniscrone has definitely found their niche now as a muni.  When I was there last weekend it was fairly crowded with a bunch of regular weekend warrior golfers as far as I could tell.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2011, 08:46:32 AM »
    I've expressed my thoughts on Inniscrone many times here, and won't repeat them.  But, since yet another thread's been started, I can't resist summarizing.  I think it is one of the worst courses ever built by a quality architect trying to build a quality course.  Probably the best evidence of it's worth is the fact that it utterly failed.  And don't blame the location.  Plenty of good, out of the way places have done well.  (See Stonewall in the Philly area.)  As for a hole by hole critique, I'm too lazy to do it again.  My favorite beef, of course, is with the drop kick par three (the 4th, I think).  I'm convinced that Hanse mistakenly delivered a 17 hole course, and when the error was pointed out, threw in the drop kicker.

Thanks for only summarizing Jim.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2011, 09:06:24 AM »
Jim

  I think the hole in question was originally intended to be something other than what it is but some permitting issue created a problem.

Yes, I believe the intended tee for the 5th hole was to be down and to left of the 4th green, playing to the same green now.

Wow.  That makes a lot of sense and would be a very very neat hole.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2011, 09:35:24 AM »
Inniscrone is a pretty neat golf course, but I really think its the location that's holding it down.

Mark

If you haven't been down to Inniscrone in a few years, you would amazed how much that area how grown.  As you exit off of Rt 1 onto 41S, there is a gigantic strip mall with a Lowe's, restaurants, etc.

Inniscrone has definitely found their niche now as a muni.  When I was there last weekend it was fairly crowded with a bunch of regular weekend warrior golfers as far as I could tell.

I guess Im not surprised that the area has built up a bit and I am very glad to hear its doing well now as a muni.   I guess at about 2 hours from Allentown, there are a few places I need to see for the first time before a return trip to Inniscrone.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

mike_malone

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2011, 10:14:07 AM »








  I would like those who fancy the course to speak to how two blind tee shots with blind trouble should be weighted in an evaluation of the course.









AKA Mayday

Michael Blake

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Re: Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2011, 10:24:15 AM »
From 'Courses By Country':

'Inhis January 2000 FeatureInterview on this site, Hanse commented that someone whom he respects had told him that there are many features at Inniscrone he likes quite a bit but that in places it seemed Hanse had overdone things, trying to inject too many particular features into the course.'

That's exactly how I felt when playing there.