ANGC is Ugly?

[Kirk Gill]

Kirk - I was asking questions about the blindness, having not been there. That definitly needs on site experience but I think you can say you like or dislike something without having been there, this you gotta have played it/walked it to make an opinion is nonsense.

Adrian, I'm just asking questions myself. Nothing else intended. It's just that visibility as a reward for a good shot is something I like in architecture. It seems to me a very different matter than blindness for blindness sake, if that makes any sense.

[Ryan Farrow]

Adrian,

that bunker behind 16 sitting propped up in the air is F'ing ugly and just plain wrong...

I found myself in awe over how beautiful some of the landscapes are and in the next frame, how ugly some of the bunkers are.....
I'm just waiting for Tiger Woods 2012 to make its way to our office in China so I can get to play it in person! I'll let you know what I think afterwards, but I tend to agree with you more than i disagree.


Patrick... I find it quite sad how little you value the opinion of someone whom actually designs golf courses for a living. Surely that counts for something on this board? Or maybe it doesn't?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kirk - I was asking questions about the blindness, having not been there.

That's not true.
You stated that "ANGC is ugly"
You went on to say:

I particularly think the bunkers are too large and there is an uglyness about the look of some of the greens and their complexes and the way things sit[/b][/size]


That definitly needs on site experience but I think you can say you like or dislike something without having been there, this you gotta have played it/walked it to make an opinion is nonsense.

Nonsense ? ? ?

So you don't believe in the following ?

"I do not believe any one is qualified to pass on the merits of any one hole, let alone eighteen holes, unless he has played them under all the varying conditions possible---varying winds, rain, heat, frrost, etc."

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

Was the tee up on 7 today? Seemed like it.

Sean,
The tee was not up.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Patrick. I disagree with you yes. I dont normally bother to read when I see green type because its normally twisted shite. You misread posts and twist. My very initial question was exactly that a question. I said personally I found the bunkering UGLY, I asked if others felt them same way, clearly some people do and some do not, great bunkering is in the eye of the beyholder, its an opinion. Much of Augusta I like. I asked if certain holes were blind.Kirk,  I think being in position and getting vision or being out of position and not is good architecture too.

Whilst I agree you need to see some things being there, there are some things that are clear from a postcard. If we cant opine on things we have not visited multi times its limits the scope of this forum. I can as anyone else pass comment good or bad on what we see on photo tours and I can see from TV a bunker I like at Pebble Beach or a bunker I dislike at ANGC.

I look at bunkers at ANGC and see some too big, many dont come into play or parts of them dont and yes Ryan that one at 16 is one that comes to mind. People have opinions and opinions will differ, learn to accept other opinion Patrick, if you want to argue, argue things that are fact.

[William_G]

Whilst I agree you need to see some things being there, there are some things that are clear from a postcard. If we cant opine on things we have not visited multi times its limits the scope of this forum.

Opinions on this forum have more credilbility with first hand information upon which to base one's architectural judgments, etc...

You must travel to have credibility, can't describe the kiss without kissing, etc...

Limiting the discussions would only result in more accurate opinions and threads on this site.

Our societies are wrought will ill-informed opinionated soles not the least bit interested in much beside their opinion, lol.

Thanks

[Sean_A]

William

The problem with your theory is that to even greater degree than now the same old courses will be talked about by the same old people.  Its a rinse and repeat formula that will doom any large discussion group.  I think you also have to consider that Adrian designs for a living so that should make his opinion worth while listening to for most anyway.  But of course, to talk about Augusta (and many golf courses) in a negative fashion for some is not much different if somebody makes a direct insult against a family member.  I will personally never understand how one can feel so loyal to a golf course, but that seems to be the way of the world for many golfers - very thin skinned when it comes to their club or their favourites.

Ciao

[William_G]

William

The problem with your theory is that to even greater degree than now the same old courses will be talked about by the same old people.  Its a rinse and repeat formula that will doom any large discussion group.  I think you also have to consider that Adrian designs for a living so that should make his opinion worth while listening to for most anyway.  But of course, to talk about Augusta (and many golf courses) in a negative fashion for some is not much different if somebody makes a direct insult against a family member.  I will personally never understand how one can feel so loyal to a golf course, but that seems to be the way of the world for many golfers - very thin skinned when it comes to their club or their favourites.

Ciao

hahaha, no loyalty here...

It would be difficult to design golf courses without traveling, and rendering opinions without having done so, undermines one's architectural opinion, eg.. can't wait to play Pinehurst #2 again, as I love the concept, but can't offer an opinion as I have not been there post restoration, but.........

Obviously, that type of restoration is not what Augusta will ever do, as they will continue to surgerize the course in pursuit of the perfect test at their property.

What a tournament huh??

Thanks

[Dan Herrmann]

I certainly dislike the Fazio changes, but the fact remains for me that ANGC is a fantastic example of world-class landscape architecture.  It's a very beautiful golf course.

Yeah, I prefer a more "natural" look, but that doesn't mean ANGC isn't beautiful.  We sure don't want tennis symmetry where every court is essentially the same.  Pine Valley is beautiful.  ANGC is beautiful too.  So is Merion, so is TOC.  But they're all different, and that's a good thing.

I was taken aback by the sense of the place the first time I made my way down the back entrance to pop up at Amen Corner.  The beauty of the place really hit me, and it was good.

[PThomas]

the bunkers look so 1960ish....

maybe they think they look retro and hence, cool...

[William_G]

It's a very beautiful golf course.

Yeah, I prefer a more "natural" look, but that doesn't mean ANGC isn't beautiful.  We sure don't want tennis symmetry where every court is essentially the same.  Pine Valley is beautiful.  ANGC is beautiful too.  So is Merion, so is TOC.  But they're all different, and that's a good thing.

I was taken aback by the sense of the place the first time I made my way down the back entrance to pop up at Amen Corner.  The beauty of the place really hit me, and it was good.

+1

[jeffwarne]

I certainly dislike the Fazio changes, but the fact remains for me that ANGC is a fantastic example of world-class landscape architecture.  It's a very beautiful golf course.

Yeah, I prefer a more "natural" look, but that doesn't mean ANGC isn't beautiful.  We sure don't want tennis symmetry where every court is essentially the same.  Pine Valley is beautiful.  ANGC is beautiful too.  So is Merion, so is TOC.  But they're all different, and that's a good thing.

I was taken aback by the sense of the place the first time I made my way down the back entrance to pop up at Amen Corner.  The beauty of the place really hit me, and it was good.

Which is actually more natural?
Pine needles or "native grasses" that I never see anywhere but on golf courses

[Gary Slatter]

Jeff, thanks for your detailed post #40.   It makes a lot of sense.   I love the place, and can't wait to get back.

re: question: ANGC is Ugly?    No, it is the perfect American course to hold the annual Masters Tournament.  Rite of Spring!  The course and the TV coverage continue to match the improvement in the invitees, every year.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff, great post.  What do you think about the changes to #11? 

Jim,
in the past, the ideal way was to play 11 down the right side into the gallery opening up the angle.
No doubt this was a safety concern and perhaps the powers that be didn't like that the longer hitters often went that way,\.
I'd like to see 5-10 trees come out of there still, but it appears the hole plays as it did back in the day with the shorter hitters playing to the right side of the green or off the green.

It is shocking how far they hit the ball now (esp. in the heat)

[William_G]

Jeff, great post.  What do you think about the changes to #11?  

It is shocking how far they hit the ball now (esp. in the heat)

It is insane how far they hit the ball! It was my first pro tournament in a few years.

Not just Woodland etc..., everyone! They just pound it every time, not just their good hits, it's crazy.

Hearing that Schwartzel hit driver, wedge on 18, its a 455 yard hole uphill, dogleg right.... just saying that the difference between the pros and us hackers is expanding massively.

Thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick. I disagree with you yes. I dont normally bother to read when I see green type because its normally twisted shite.
You misread posts and twist.

I didn't misread anything.  In fact, I quoted you.  Perhaps you forgot what you typed.  So, let me help you again.
You stated:

ANGC is Ugly

Then, you went on to say:
I particularly think the bunkers are too large and there is an uglyness about the look of some of the greens and their complexes and the way things sit.

So, there's no misreading and misquoting or twisting there.
Those are your words, don't try to deny them
[/b][/size]

My very initial question was exactly that a question. I said personally I found the bunkering UGLY, I asked if others felt them same way, clearly some people do and some do not, great bunkering is in the eye of the beyholder, its an opinion.
NO, that's NOT what you asked.

You NEVER asked about the bunkers. The question you asked was about blindness/semi-blindness, NOT about bunkers.
Obviously you don't even recall what you typed

You stated:

I have not been there but several holes seem from my TV impression to be less visible from the approach shot than they might be with a different design, in particular am I right in thinking greens 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 14, 17 and 18 are semi blind. I wonder why this course is hailed as highly, has my GCA education on this site pickled my mind? There are elements of greatness but I can see weakness. How do others feel[/b][/size]


Much of Augusta I like. I asked if certain holes were blind.Kirk,  I think being in position and getting vision or being out of position and not is good architecture too.

What has that got to do with labeling the course as "ugly" ?

Whilst I agree you need to see some things being there, there are some things that are clear from a postcard. If we cant opine on things we have not visited multi times its limits the scope of this forum.

You are free to opine on anything.
But, when you opine, or more accurately, declare the course is "ugly" and you've never set foot on it, I'm going to opine to the contrary and I have set foot on it.  So, my opinion is fact based.  I've seen the golf course as the golfer sees the golf course, and not from a blimp or TV tower that doesn't reveal the true character and architectural features of the golf course.

AGNC is a magnificent golf course.  It's brilliantly designed, challenging, fun and visually appealing to the golfer.

"UGLY" is not a word I would ever use to describe any aspect of the golf course.
That's a word I might use to describe TEPaul's wardrobe, but, not ANGC

I can as anyone else pass comment good or bad on what we see on photo tours and I can see from TV a bunker I like at Pebble Beach or a bunker I dislike at ANGC.

That's true.
But when you make uninformed judgements you have to be prepared to be challenged in a forum such as this.
And when you make, absurd, uninformed judgements, you have to be intelligent enough to realize that you've made a mistake in your assessment when it's pointed out to you

I look at bunkers at ANGC and see some too big,

Which ones ?

many dont come into play or parts of them dont

Which ones ?

 and yes Ryan that one at 16 is one that comes to mind.

Every bunker on # 16 comes into play

People have opinions and opinions will differ, learn to accept other opinion Patrick, if you want to argue, argue things that are fact.

I did, the problem is, you don't know the facts.

You know nothing about how the bunkers look to the players, you know nothing about the player's visuals of the greens.
You have no personal on course experience to draw from.
You don't have the facts at your disposal, and I do.
The moment you titled your post, "ANGC is Ugly" it told everyone everything they needed to know about your opinion.
Basically, that it's worthless on the topic of ANGC from the golfer's perspective.

But, you might want to write to ANGC, CBS and ESPN and make your thoughts known

[Dan Herrmann]

I watched the '75 Masters last night.  For my money, today's Augusta is a lot more beautiful than it was in '75.

[JR Potts]

Jeff, great post.  What do you think about the changes to #11?  

It is shocking how far they hit the ball now (esp. in the heat)

It is insane how far they hit the ball! It was my first pro tournament in a few years.

Not just Woodland etc..., everyone! They just pound it every time, not just their good hits, it's crazy.

Hearing that Schwartzel hit driver, wedge on 18, its a 455 yard hole uphill, dogleg right.... just saying that the difference between the pros and the hackers is expanding massively.

Thanks

I'm reluctant to post on this thread as I don't want to be associated with any comment calling Augusta National ugly.

The length that some of these guys have is astonishing.  Dustin Johnson flew the bunker on 8 by 30 yards....30 yards!  Rory McIlroy hit the ball all the way down the hill and almost on the upslope on 9....every day.

The only issue I see with Augusta is that the TigerProofing has actually had the opposite effect.  The average 280 knocker hits the ball and it catches an upslope on almost every hole while the big knockers fly the ball 15-20 yards further and catch the crown of the fairway giving them an extra 15-25 yards of roll on top of the distance carry.

These guys play a game which none of us are familiar with.

[Ryan Farrow]

Patrick, I hate to come across like this but here it goes.....

Don't you get bored of hearing yourself respond the same way to every post? You are so predictable I don't have to read a single word you wrote to know that you will respond negatively to everything Adrian says and will never back down from you stance. I could start a thread that said the sky was too blue at Augusta National or the ocean was too loud at Seminole and you would come roaring back in defense.....

its really, really boring....    I just thought you should know.


I just want to hear you say, just once, that "hey, Adrian I disagree.... yada yada yada.......




 (Seinfeld reference for anyone paying attention),




 but I could see how you could think that way."


Thats all I want.... please!!!!!!!!! Please!!! I'm begging you, just this once!

[Adrian_Stiff]

MORE twisted shite from you Patrick....if you read the initial post it has a question mark, straight away you lose in court, you misread.

I find some of the bunkers ugly, I do not have to visit ANGC under ever wind or cloud condition to make that opinion, this is something you have determined is a fact in your solar system not mine. I can see they are massive and their shapes from google earth, I can see they are exceptionally white and large from my TV and I can see I dont like the shapes. There are plenty of bunkers I have built that I consider are ugly too. If GCA has educated me  on one thing its bunkering, it's my opinion but I like the rugged, fescue outcrops and natural shapes that we see on many posts here, its my opinion ANGC could be bettered with a radical bunkering change to that style.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

the only comment I can have is that I would like to see the bunkers with a little more character as well...they do appear too conformed and uniform...not like those at Cyrpess that have a more irregular look.
But other than that...my goodness beautiful to me

[John Kavanaugh]

Adrian,

Would I need to visit London to declare the Gherkin ugly?

[Adrian_Stiff]

No John.

[John Kavanaugh]

Thank you, that clears things up.

[Patrick_Mucci]

MORE twisted shite from you Patrick....if you read the initial post it has a question mark, straight away you lose in court, you misread.

Since you can't recall what you wrote, I'll quote it yet again for you.

 I particularly think the bunkers are too large and[/size] THERE IS AN UGLYNESSabout the look of some of the greens and their complexes and the way things sit.


Those are your words.[/b][/color]

I find some of the bunkers ugly, I do not have to visit ANGC under ever wind or cloud condition to make that opinion, this is something you have determined is a fact in your solar system not mine.


Actually, it's not mine, it's Charles Blair Macdonald's.
He made that statement on page 295 of "Scotland's Gift"

I can see they are massive and their shapes from google earth,

Is that how they appear to the golfer as he conducts his round ?

I can see they are exceptionally white and large from my TV and I can see I dont like the shapes.

Please tell us how you determine how the shapes appear to the GOLFER'S EYE.
And, did you ever consider that those bunkers have a dual burden, that of having to interface with the members/guests and the best golfers in the world ?  Perhaps that will give you a clue as to one of the reasons they have to be rather large.  In addition, their scale, there size, presents a deception, that of the bunker being closer than it really is, thus temping golfers to challenge it.

There are plenty of bunkers I have built that I consider are ugly too. If GCA has educated me  on one thing its bunkering, it's my opinion but I like the rugged, fescue outcrops and natural shapes that we see on many posts here, its my opinion ANGC could be bettered with a radical bunkering change to that style.

Why don't you write to Augusta and tell them how they can improve the look of the golf course by changing the bunker shapes and how they are maintained.

Previously, I asked you to cite specifics, and you've failed to do so.  Could you answer the questions previously posed ?
It's much easier dealing with specifics than vaque generalities

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