Masters Setup Makes No Sense...

[Phil McDade]

So far through three rounds:

2011: Leader at -12; four at -8; 2 at -7; one at -6; and five at -5.

2010: Leader at -12; one at -11; two at -8; one at -7; three at -6; two at -5.

2009: Two leaders at -11; one at -9; one at -8; one at -7; three at -6.

I see no true discernable difference in how this year's set-up is impacting scores of those in contention, compared to the past two years.

[archie_struthers]

 

I love firm and fast ...absolutely love it but let's not take it to such extremes that we can't enjoy a great golf tournament .

  Pretty cool the way the young Irish kid is playing , looking a lot like a young Nicklaus in his approach.  Have you heard the interviews , he's spot on , and he's not scared of winning this thing.  Now he gets a new tough nemesis replacing Jason Day, let's enjoy the show.

As to the golf course again, some of the trees might be beter off removed , but this is liooking a lot like some of the great Masters of the 70's and 80's coming up manana.   One US Open is enough, and viva la differance!

[Don_Mahaffey]

1/2 inch? .47 freaking 100ths of an inch on USGA greens with sub air systems? 5 days ago and Pat the expert thinks that's the reason they can back up a 3 wood. 1/2 a damn inch 5 days ago?
Ok, maybe in the real low areas, with shade, the course should still be wet, but what I'm seeing is an effort for perfect consistency and its perfectly boring. I want to see the greens turning colors like the good old days when it was more then just bomb and gouge but you also had to have trajectory and spin control. Now its just miss the trees and bombs away. Its always been about putting at ANGC, but now its pretty much 90% putting and the rest is just stay out of trouble. I feel asleep and when I woke up I thought I was watching the Houston Open.

[Patrick_Mucci]

1/2 inch? .47 freaking 100ths of an inch on USGA greens with sub air systems? 5 days ago and Pat the expert thinks that's the reason they can back up a 3 wood. 1/2 a damn inch 5 days ago?

It was only one day between the rain day, Tuesday, and the start of the tournament on Thursday, not 4 or 5 days.

In addition, these fellows, the greatest golfers in the world, don't hit low running shots, they hit howitzer or mortar like trajectory shots.


Ok, maybe in the real low areas, with shade, the course should still be wet, but what I'm seeing is an effort for perfect consistency and its perfectly boring.

I don't know how you equate the quest for consistency, "perfect" consistency with boring golf.
The golf looks anything but boring.
Maybe you're watching reruns of another tournament

I want to see the greens turning colors like the good old days when it was more then just bomb and gouge but you also had to have trajectory and spin control. Now its just miss the trees and bombs away.


That's got more to do with the equipment than this year's conditions.
Certainly the narrowing of the playing corridors reduces the tendency to bomb and gouge.
If the fairways were wider, you'd see more bombing.
You can't have it both ways.
As to the grass turning color, they had some pretty cool days as well.
Mother Nature doesn't abide by anyone's time table.

You know as well as anyone that timing a tournament with optimized conditions isn't the easiest thing to accomplish

Its always been about putting at ANGC, but now its pretty much 90% putting and the rest is just stay out of trouble.
I disagree with that.
I think it's about positioning your drive and your IRON play to the green.
Irons hit to the proper location make putting a dream.
Irons to the wrong position make putting a nightmare

I feel asleep and when I woke up I thought I was watching the Houston Open.

You must be in residence at Happydale Farms

Please say "hello" to TE and Wayno for me

[Don_Mahaffey]

Pat,
I don't want to get into a long back and forth with you, so I'll leave it at this and give you the last word.
I don't think for a second that a club like ANGC does anything without a clear end goal in mind. No course in America has more resources available to them, be it the greatest minds in agronomy, tournament set up, or the $$$ to do what ever they want. No course in America has gone through more improvements over the last 5 decades. They know every square inch of that property and if a certain area was chronically wet, its got some sort of drainage solution in place. While none of us can control weather, this week it has been dry, outside of 5 days ago when it rained 1/2 inch. They could suck those greens dry if they wanted, and they just might do that tonight. Whatever you say, you'll never convince me they don't have the exact playing conditions they wanted. If the grass was too think going into the tournament, they could have thinned it out. It it was too dry, they'd wet it down, and if too wet, especially on the greens they'd dry it down. I guarantee you they have in ground moisture sensors in those greens and they are dialing in exactly what they want. I have no doubt about that whatsoever.
I would like to see a bouncier course. That's not what those setting up ANGC want and I'm 99% positive the grounds staff, some of the best in the world, are giving the decision makers exactly what they want.    

[Tim_Cronin]

I think the course has been set up perfectly. Too many trees where there were no trees in the pre-Hootie era, but every year since Billy Payne took over, things have gotten better. Through three rounds this year, there's been plenty of movement on the first page of the leader board, but best player to this point has shared or held the lead outright all the way. That tells me that, first, the course is there for those who can play the correct shot, and second, Rory M. has played plenty of them.

As for soft greens, there were plenty of shots today that bounced over the greens. A well-struck shot stays on the green. McIlroy has hit more of them than anyone else.

And kudos to the right honorable Judge Lavin for the best post of this discussion.

[Bill Gayne]

Even if a ground game option was available to tour players they would not utilize it. The only way the ball gets back on the ground is to change the ball.

I think the set-up is outstanding for the modern tour player.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I think the set-up is outstanding for the modern tour player.

Your right about that. A long golf course with soft fwys so they can swing away, with the new ball that spins less, and not worry about running into trouble. Soft greens where the only worry is spinning back too much, but that has pretty much been negated by the lower spinning ball. Its the absolute best set up possible for all the new young guns and while I'm a fan of many of them, I'd like to see a little more of their game.

[Jim Nugent]

Pat, the Weather Channel says Augusta GA has had 0.47 inches of rain for the entire month of April.  It says the last six days of March Augusta had 4.5 inches of rain. 

[Jason Walker]

I will let Pat Mucci speak for my general opinions of this thread, but having heard from a good friend from college who is an Augusta Country Club (next door to ANGC) member, it's been pretty swampy down there.  So--everyone relax.  We have a good toon-a-mint on our hands right now.  ANGC around Masters time isn't set up for the 16 hcapper whose stock shot is the topped 3-wood....nor should it be.  I think the course set-up is pretty much perfect for the championship.

[Grant Saunders]

One thing that has struck me watching the coverage is how small the landing areas to get to the hole locations really are (like the 16th yesterday front right by the bunker). Nick faldo in particular keeps making reference to it.
 
These players are controlling the distance and line of their ball to within a couple of feet. Any miscalculation is heavily penalised.

People can talk all they like about the ground game and how it supposedly takes more skill. I say it takes amazing skill to judge to near perfection where they are going to land the ball and then how it will react once on the putting surface.

[Andy Troeger]

Is this the first time in recent memory that the banks of the water hazards haven't been shaved? I've never seen anything like Jason Day's shot on #15 today where it came up short and stayed there. Obviously just having the pond there creates some element of risk, but it seems far less fearsome this year.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I don't hear anyone clamoring for the ground game, its just the way the course is set up its not even an option. Take the pin on 13 today. The green was too soft to run it back to the little plateau, and if you didn't hit the perfect shot it spun back down. So we get to watch a bunch of 50 foot putts all day. Wouldn't it have been nice to flight something in there that could take a couple of forward hops and work up to the small tier? Instead, the only shot that had any chance was a soaring high long iron or wood, or a wedge. No chance to be creative in any other way. Purely a power game and an exacting aerial approach. While I'll admit that sort of game takes tremendous skill, and may be entertaining at times, there is no reason a great course like ANGC needs to be so one dimensional.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, the Weather Channel says Augusta GA has had 0.47 inches of rain for the entire month of April.  It says the last six days of March Augusta had 4.5 inches of rain. 

Jim, that's correct and that's alot of rain.

The additional rain in April, .47 inches occured on the Tuesday before Thursday's opening round.

If conditions get incredibly fast and firm as at Shinnecock for the Open, people complain.
If they're not incredibly fast and firm, even if the course has been soaked by rain, people complain.

Those complaining should try to run a 4 day tournament when Mother Nature doesn't co-operate.
It ain't easy.

[jeffwarne]

The head scratcher for me is how they have taken what use to be the most special looking place and turned it into just another golf course. The 2nd cut is mostly responsible but the trees help a lot.
 

Have you seen the 2nd cut in person?  It is about the same length as a fairway at most golf courses.

Also, that is one of the widest golf courses I have seen. 

+2

I'm curious to know when the played a "ground game at ANGC"
It's a winter club played on a clay base.

The course has tons of strategy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't hear anyone clamoring for the ground game, its just the way the course is set up its not even an option.

Don, it tends to be an option when the players get in trouble and don't have a direct aerial path to the green.
Many recoveries, especially to holes like # 17, tend to be along the ground.
 
Take the pin on 13 today. The green was too soft to run it back to the little plateau, and if you didn't hit the perfect shot it spun back down.

That's easy to say when you're watching on TV, but, from the middle of the fairway, with a hook lie, you have to clear the fronting creek.
If you play that running shot, you bring the creek into play.  Today, these fellows hit their shots high, not on the lower trajectory you suggest.  And, that's a very narrow path to that hole location.  One of the announcers described the LZ on that green as being the same size as a dinner table for 8.

So we get to watch a bunch of 50 foot putts all day. Wouldn't it have been nice to flight something in there that could take a couple of forward hops and work up to the small tier?

Tha's not a high percentage shot and it brings disaster into play.

Why walk away with a bogey or worse on that hole.
Tiger tried the shot you reference and ended up over the green.


Instead, the only shot that had any chance was a soaring high long iron or wood, or a wedge. No chance to be creative in any other way. Purely a power game and an exacting aerial approach. While I'll admit that sort of game takes tremendous skill, and may be entertaining at times, there is no reason a great course like ANGC needs to be so one dimensional.

That's not true.
Tiger tried your shot and it didn't work for him.

I"m sure others tried it as well, but, I don't know that we saw every approach to that green.

[Doug Wright]

ANGC is a great golf course. Yes the trees suck and the greens are a bit softer than usual but as always it's still all about the greens and who can navigate them/play to the correct spot etc. See eg Jason Day's rookie mistake hitting it over the 13th green today. Perhaps a bit easier with softer conditions but the best player this week is still winning (will win).

[Mark Chaplin]

The Masters is about quick sloping greens, wide fairways, ball positioning and the opportunity to make eagle or treble

The US Open is about hard fast greens, choking rough and ribbon fairways

The Open Championship is about tight fairways, pot bunkers, opportunity to use ground play and slower greens

I don't know what the USPGA stands for so will ignore it.

Each of the three important majors gives a different experience and requires different skills. We should celebrate the diversity they give and not request all major courses be clones of each other.

[Greg Tallman]

Augusta National and no strategy do not belong in the same conversation let alone same sentence. To make that statement about the golf course shows a complete lack of understanding of the course at least and perhaps the game itslef, not to mention the psyche of a world class player who can acutally think in terms of ´"avoiding this slope by a foot so that the ball will feed 45 feet down toward the flag".

Put me on The Old Course against a top touring professional and I might actually hold my own for a period. Put me on Augusta against the same professional and I am toast out of the box. Why? He is that much better.

As often discussed when considering the rankings there are many who will not ignore the "resistance to scoring" concept when evaluating a golf course and to be perfectly honest who's to say that should not be a major compnent of course evaulation?

[John Kavanaugh]

Richard must be out working in his rose garden.

[Richard Choi]

If you like aerial game, you loved this Masters.

[Patrick_Mucci]

If you like aerial game, you loved this Masters.

Richard,

Could you identify venues on the PGA Tour where any game other than the aerial game reigns ?

[John Kavanaugh]

If you like aerial game, you loved this Masters.

If you love Golfweek, you grasp for excuses. 10th is shameful politically motivated punishment. Not a ranking.

[Brent Hutto]

To see modern elite players play anything other than an aerial game, you need a stiff wind and rock-hard greens. Augusta has neither at the moment and seldom has serious wind for more than a single round at a time.

Absent wind and extreme firmness. the much-deried aerial game is simply the more effective way to shoot a low score. So the people with the most to grain from shooting low scores use the aerial game.

The ground game is much more fun for hackers, though. That's why so many of us fly thousands of miles on occasion to find wind and rock-hard greens.

[Richard Choi]

If you like aerial game, you loved this Masters.

Richard,

Could you identify venues on the PGA Tour where any game other than the aerial game reigns ?

No, aerial game reigns supreme on PGA Tour. You get a ground game every now and then in US Open when greens are very firm and the course allows it. But that is about it. (I promise the ground game will be live and well when US Open comes to Chambers)

I think we can give it a rest with the tree plantings at ANGC. With the aerial game being so dominant the width matters vary little other than providing more margin for error off the tee. You can even argue that they should make it narrower.