Masters Setup Makes No Sense...

[David Whitmer]

David, I personally don't care what the winning score is. I am just confused by the schizoid actions the setup committee seems to be performing. I thought the whole point of planting the trees and narrowing the fairways with the rough was to make the course harder.

But now they (and you) are basically saying we made the course too hard, so we have to soften the greens!!!???

Why not just chop the trees down and take the course back to how it used to play???

Bring back the excitement by giving back angles and strategy, which is what this course used to be about. Which is what also made this course and tournament so unique. Don't just turn it in to just another tour stop, which is what this setup is doing.

With few exceptions, Augusta for The Masters has never played very fast and very firm (at least in my lifetime). I think they planted the trees and moved the tees back so guys would not shoot 28 under par. If you give the pros unbelievably wide fairways, no rough, very few trees, and lush conditions, they will kill it. Think about it: if the course still played around 7,000 yards, and if the trees had not been planted, what kind of scores do you think they would be shooting? If you let Tiger hit it 20 yards right on 11 and he can play a 9-iron in with nothing in his way, he'll go low every time. If he can blow it right on #15 and then hit a 6 or 7 iron in with nothing in his way, what kind of test for him is that?

They had to do something to keep the scores respectable. The golf ball and equipment was getting out of control, and the USGA did nothing about it. The course has never played totally fast and firm for the event, so you know they weren't going to go there. This isn't like St. Andrews where wind can be counted on as a defense. The only logical step was to do what they did. Sure, they bastardized their golf course, but they did it for their event which generates millions and millions and millions each year.

[John Kavanaugh]

To say there is no strategy or angles to those greens at uberstimp speeds would only be spewed by he of no sense.  Everything great must be built off of a benchmark.  The speed of the greens dictate the firmness.  Don't worry, if the winds pick up and the rain stays away the course will be everything you want this Sunday afternoon.  We are heading towards the finest Masters finish in history.  Patience.

[Kalen Braley]

I think Richard makes a pretty good point here, it does see inconsistent at the very least.

The only thing I would suggest is that the new chairman doesn't want the course playing like the US Open 2.0, with players struggling for pars.  He wants the roars and the swashbuckling to come back.  So the cheapest/easiest way to accomplish that is to keep the greens a bit more receptive instead of undoing all the physical changes that Hootie implemented over the last decade or so.

[Phil McDade]

The aggregate scores of the contenders this year at the halfway point is a bit lower than the two previous years, but not egregiously so.

This year: leader at -10, followed by: -8; two @ -7; two @ -6; and five @ -5.

2010: two leaders at -8, followed by: five players @ -6; one @ -5; and three @ -3.

2009: two leaders at -9, followed by: one @ -8; one @ -6; one @ -5; and five @ -4.

So far this year, we've seen one 64, two 65s, one 66, and three 67s.

In '10 through two rounds, we saw five 67s, and one 66.

In '09 through two rounds, we saw two 65s, three 66s, and five 67s.

So for the past three years, it seems this year is playing ever so slightly easier than '09, although there is an argument that suggests '09 was perhaps yielding more good rounds more often. It's easier this year than last year, but not by much -- a degree perhaps.

[John Kavanaugh]

A case can be made that trees are not boring.

[Richard Choi]

David, you should go listen to Tiger Woods press conference from yesterday. He keeps repeating how soft the greens are compared to past years. He couldn't believe some of the shots that were spinning back.

[Mark Chaplin]

McIroy and Woods in the top 3 and world number one misses cut. I'm sure the powers will be pretty chuffed that there is excitement but some class still fails.

You cannot ignore the fact the course was flooded a couple of weeks ago.

[John Kavanaugh]

The world has changed to the point that none of this matters. Clubs do not have the money to emulate ANGC and if it is treeless brown golf that floats your boat we now have public courses serving it up in spades. Chambers Bay anyone?

[Mike Hendren]

The Masters folks are damned if they do and damned if they don't on this website.   That to me says more about the mindset of the critics than the tournament officials.  

Rough you say?  How many balls have you seen buried therein? I'll answer for you - none.  It merely places a premium on driving the golf ball and the only downside to a miss is the potential flyer - ask Allenby on 18 yesterday as he battled the cut line.  Contrast that with Tiger's brilliant cut short iron.  I'd say the rough separated the man from the boy - the just goal of any architectural element.

Firm and fast you say?  Anybody familiar with Rye grass in the South this time of year - it won't happen.  

Aerial game you say?   Gee, hardly an epiphany in professional golf over, what the last 15 years?  Contrary to Jones' theoretical homage to The Old Course  Augusta National Golf Club's course has never invited the ground game at least for the best players.
Besides I tire of all the BS about the ground game on this web site.  I haven't witnessed first hand anybody on this site playing that way - ever.  Like Fred, the ground game is dead. (This from a man who played a putter for his second at both the 10th and 16th holes of The Old Course so save your benom Mel at al.)

Rant over.

[Morgan Clawson]

Here are my thoughts on Augusta National in regard to this thread and some others.

I went to the tournament before the trees were planted on the right sides of 11 and 15.  Without the trees and the rough they essentially has speed slots in those areas. The pros would bomb it down the right side of both holes and the ball would roll and roll. Remember Tiger hitting wedge as his second shot on 15? So what was ANGC supposed to to do? They had to make some adjustments.  I agree with JC in that the rough is pretty darn short; most shots don't seem to be affected much. And most of the fairways are still very wide.

For as long as I've been watching, this course has never been about running the ball onto the greens. There might be a few greens where that might work, but not many. Most of the greens are too complex or guarded with bunkers to execute a reasonable running shot. Remember how Jack's high fade was lauded as the perfect shot for ANGC?

The members of Augusta National has been involved in the design process since day 1 with Bobby Jones and Clifford Roberts providing input. So really, the constant adjustment of the course is part of its legacy.  Many of the older tournamnet courses are now obsolete because they didn't or couldn't make changes. Augusta National has always been about the Masters and for the most part the members have responded by making appropriate changes.
 
If you haven't been to the tournament, do everything that you can to go.  It is an amazing golf course. It will be one of the best days of your year.

[William_G]

The head scratcher for me is how they have taken what use to be the most special looking place and turned it into just another golf course. The 2nd cut is mostly responsible but the trees help a lot.
 

Have you seen the 2nd cut in person?  It is about the same length as a fairway at most golf courses.

Also, that is one of the widest golf courses I have seen. 

Just got back from Augusta, went there with my son for my birthday.

Lush, is the correct adjective to describe the conditions, and Tiger is exactly right, took the words right out my mouth.

The fairways are not firm and fast, and the second cut is shaggier than than I remember. The fairways are also a bit shaggy, IMHO.

The greens are definitely cut down. But with all the slopes, the hole positions will be difficult.

With sub-air on every green, Fred Ridley and the Augusta competition committee obviously have decided on the  softness of the greens they prefer.

Their course is all about this tournament and it supposed to be a "test" for the best pros and amateurs.

The weather this weekend will allow them to have "their" perfect set-up.

It will be GREAT television, no doubt!

Which is exactly what they want, as it helps create interest not only in their event, but in golf worldwide.

With Augusta's hillside location and architecture, there should be plenty of "ground game" to differentiate this event from any "typical" pga event.

The "ground game" is what I love about playing Bandon!

Thanks

[Kalen Braley]

Rough you say?  How many balls have you seen buried therein? I'll answer for you - none.

Here is one!!    Had to take an unplayable!

http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/blog/devil_ball_golf/post/Matt-Kuchar-and-the-mystery-of-the-missing-mis-h?urn=golf-wp733

"it was so buried that Kuchar couldn't gouge it out if he'd used a shovel"

[Matt_Ward]

Morgan:

You mentioned Tiger having a wedge into #15 -- you make it sound like everyone was doing likewise. Far from it. The big boys always had the advantage -- when Jack hit his 8-iron into #15 when shooting 64 in '65 it was comparably the same club Tiger hit into the hole in '97.

You say "appropriate changes." Do you understand that Jones / Mackenzie envisioned a TOC for the grounds.

Help me out -- why the need for narrow corridors? Was the old 11th that weak a hole? I seriously doubt it. Or how about the need to lengthen the 7th -- A FULL 100 YARDS !

Firmness happened at ANGC -- read the article by Geoff S in the current issue of GW w DJ on the cover. AP explains what happened years ago there.

Try to keep this in mind -- ANGC officials back off all the time -- they usually use the first two rounds to weed out players then realize the "entertainment" vehicle needs to be there for the weekend -- why? Because people don't want to see the US Open come earlier than each year.

JC:

If you think the course is wide -- you should have seen it without the 'second cut.'

Bogey:

Ask yourself this -- why the need for a 'second cut." What was broken that badly it needed that sort of remedy ?

Rough is a problematic inclusion -- ANGC's strength was that it didn't need that element to bolster the course as it must for
so many others.

The sad reality is that the care takers of the Jones / Mackenzie design failed to comprehend the original intent of the place. No problem in adding certain yardage to certain holes but the tree inclusion and narrow corridors is totally away from what made ANGC so special to so many people -- myself included.

In speaking about the ground game read the Geoff S article in Golf World about what the players said about the firmness from years back. There's a great mention by AP regarding the need to bounce balls into the putting surfaces - AP even says he had seen balls bounce as high as ten feet in certain situations. The fact is the powers-that-be turned what was an outstanding layout into something seen in other places. Nothing was broken THAT bad to merit what was done.

[Brent Carlson]

I wholeheartedly agree with Richard on this one.  The firmness and width was unique to Augusta.  Remove the first cut and the trees.  The length has to stay, due to modern equipment.  The real solution is what Gary Player said a couple days ago, the modern ball travels 50 yards too far on drives.

Augusta never needed fixing, but the ProV era forced them to take action.

[Tim_Cronin]

It's been great fun so far. Yes, the place is soggy in parts - there were footprints on the 15th fairway yesterday - where there's no Sub-Air system. But the set-up (and no wind on Thursday) has encouraged players to play bold shots. Some are rewarded. Some not.

It's well to remember that the scoring average has been over par for both the first and second round.

[Carl Rogers]

In 2007 when Zach Johnson won, I remember that was very firm and fast and I think his winning score was barely under par.  I remember the balls bouncing all over and the sides of the greens.  I was not enamoured with the Tournamant that year.

If the set-up goal was firm and fast, then it would seem a lot of remodeling would be needed to avoid a +6 winner.

The club seems not to want to make some kind of official set-up policy goal.  Or would it be too controversial to have a set-up policy goal? Pick your controversy???

[Morgan Clawson]

Matt,

Yes, Tiger may have been the 1st to hit wedge into 15.  But if they didn't make the changes, think how many guys would be doing that today. All of the fantastic McElroy/Fowler/Day group could do it; they can hit it as far as Tiger.

I need to learn more about Macenzie and Jones TOC dreams for ANGC. But, that connection seems pretty loose to me. Could the land itself be any more different?

Other than a few tee shots I don't feel like those corridors are that narrow. The trees are pretty huge  and have a good deal of room between them outside of Amen Corner so recovery shots are fairly easy.

[John Shimp]

The course does seem softer and I hate many of the changes particularly the trees and lengthening hole 7 like they did.

That said it is nothing like a typical tour course and to say you take dead aim at the flags is flat wrong.  Look at the back. Need to be left off the tee and right into the green on10. Clearly can't pin hunt on 11.  12 must look left a fantastic strategic par 3. 13 the farther left the drive the better flatter shorter and better green angle. Must keep approach left too.  14 is a superb driving hole where a draw helps and a hang hurts.  Superb green requires usually aiming well left of the hole to get close.  15 must be right and long into the green etc.  Blah blah.

This isn't close to target golf at angc.  Richard you will see what I mean when you see the place. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Can someone explain to me why Masters committee has setup ANGC like this?

Like what ?
Please be specific

What are they trying to achieve?

Why would you have soft greens for a major where it just becomes a dart game for these pros?

Perhaps because it rained prior to the tournament

Why especially when you have spent last 10 years planting trees, narrowing the landing zones, and growing rough in ill-advised quest to make par more difficult, then blow that all away with soft greens?
Why not just take the course back to its original configuration and make the greens firmer?

Could you tell us exactly how you do that when it rains just prior to the tournament ?

They can't blame the weather as it has been just about perfect.

They had almost a half an inch of rain on April 5th.
How is that perfect weather. ?

It is not that I don't like birdies, but there is very little strategy left on the course anymore.

Richard, that's an extremely foolish comment.

It is just like any other PGA Tour stop where you hit to the middle of the fairway and aim for the flag on every hole.

That's absurd, and if you had any familiarity with the golf course, you'd realize how absurd that is.

What is going on at Augusta?

A great golf tournament that you're evidently missing

[Matt_Ward]

Morgan:

OK -- let's play our your point. How many guys would make eagle ?

The sad reality is that people at ANGC went overboard -- all the Tiger proofing efforts have been with that thought in mind.

Jack hitting 8-iron into #15 didn't mean everyone else was doing likewise or being able to score consistently. Diitto for Tiger and what Hootie and team did at #11 whern they saw Phil hit a 9i-iron into that green -- again with the massive over-reach for a correction that applied to less than 5% of the field.

You mention that all of the young guys could do it. OK -- so let them. Big freakin deal. Does everything have to be changed because 5% or less are able to do it ?

The "connection" to TOC is what Jones / Mackenzie envisioned for ANGC -- not the bowling alley, forrest enclosed driving corridors, second cuts and mega length gone wild -- see #7 and #11 as two great examples. The parkland of GA is different than Scotland -- but the concept of strategic angles is what ANGC carried forward from TOC and Jones / Mackenzie wanted something vastly different than the predictable penal styles seen with so many other top tier courses.

Morgan, I saw the pre-Augusta prior to Hootie and crew -- the course then and now is different -- in a big time way. Just my opinion.

[Richard Choi]

Pat, you don't have to take my word for it. Just listen to all of the player press conferences. The comments about how soft and surprisingly receptive the greens are quite frequent. I guess they don't know much about the course as well.

What is the point of having a sub air system if you cannot dry out the green in 4 or 5 dry days?

[Terry Lavin]

Richard,

I get your point that you think the greens ought to be firmer, but I'm guessing you don't know what you're talking about.  Ever been to Augusta?  Ever played it?  How many majors have you been to?  How much experience do you have with working with a superintendent who is getting a course ready for a major?  What's your level of familiarity with the subair system they have there?  How much experience do you have with dealing with five inches of rain within two weeks of the beginning of a major?  Add to that lack of knowledge/experience that you've probably never even been a committee member of a club that gets to listen to the experts as they fret about the weather and try to nickel around the edges of setting up a great course for a major championship and I think you wind up with next to nothing.

Unless I'm wrong, which has happened before!  My point is that the men who are working at ANGC have a hell of a lot of experience and they've probably been dancing on a tightrope with the weather down there, what with dozens of tornadoes this week in the general area and plenty of rain last week.  If the greens are too soft for you, well I guess you want pool tables or something, so the balls would bound into bunkers and other hazards.

Seems to me that they've done a pretty good job setting the course up under less than ideal circumstances.  If they avoid the rain they're supposed to get tonight, the course will be a bit firmer tomorrow.

[John Shimp]

Richard,
It's not a dart game there.  Of corse there are some holes setup to allow straight forward approaches.  Mostly it's tough to consistently get the ball close.  The greens are super undulating and tough in general.  That place with "dry" greens can become unplayable very quickly.   As it stands now the greens are very firm to pitch and chip shots.  Well struck approaches will hold.

[Tim_Cronin]

No worries about weather now, by the way. Augusta is on the edge of a T-storm watch area, but the weather is moving away.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, you don't have to take my word for it. Just listen to all of the player press conferences.

Years ago, Frank Hannigan told me that the last people you wanted to listen to was the players.

The weather statistics don't lie, it rained .47 inches just prior to the tournament.

The comments about how soft and surprisingly receptive the greens are quite frequent.

You said the weather was perfect.
It WASN'T
It rained nearly a half inch just prior to the tournament.
When I last spoke to professional green superintendents, they told me that rain makes greens softer.
When it comes to agronomics, I'll take thieir word for it.

I guess they don't know much about the course as well.

If you listen to the open "mikes" you'll see that they don't know as much as you'd like to believe.

What is the point of having a sub air system if you cannot dry out the green in 4 or 5 dry days?

4 or 5 days ?
Don't you know how to count.

It rained a half an inch on Tuesday and they played on Thursday, that's ONE (1) day between the rain and the tournament.

Please get your facts right prior to posting .