Knoll West CC - Parsippany NJ - Charles Banks - All pics uploaded!

[Richard Hetzel]

This past week, and against my better weather judgement, I ventured to New Jersey. I decided that no matter the weather, I was going to play some golf to kick off my 2011 season. The first course I played was Knoll West CC in Parsippany, NJ. Here are the first few iPhone 4 pictures from the first 3 holes (and the 4th tee box view). I will post the rest later this evening. In case you were wondering it was about 38-40 degrees and sunny the day I played. The price was borderline exorbitant for winter golf $67 and not allowed to walk before 3pm on a weekday. Three of the greens had tarps tacked down (thanks for not telling me when I called) and I couldn't even walk on them, but I enjoyed the course, so whatever. I did not enjoy the course as much as Hackensack GC, but it was well worth the 30 minute drive from where I was staying with relatives. On the way to the West you can see the East course, but it was not very visually stimulating and on a real so-so piece of land from what you can see from the road anyway.








The next set starting with Hole #4.

[Brent Hutto]

Nice start to the thread, Rich.

Regarding this last of the first batch of photos...



Can you give us some context regarding the hole and the placement of that neat little scar bunker relative to the approach shot? Does it take a really skanky or misclubbed approach to make it up the slope and into the bunker?

P.S. How did you get along with Northwoods when you played there?

[George_Bahto]

Brent - that picture is taken from behind the Redan green - the tee is up on the top right

the bunker you see is what you would get into if your tee shot was too aggressive (or rolling fast) and the Redan "hill" wold not kick you down into the green

[Brent Hutto]

Ah, thanks George. I thought it the view was from left of the green, not behind.

Probably because there's a green very similar to that at Spartanburg CC where I played recently for the first time. That memory sort of fixed my mind on the wrong perspective.

So is this one a particularly nice instance of The Redan?

[Mike Hendren]

Glad to see this thread.

Richard, do you have a photograph of the 11th green?  I can only describe it as a circle overlaid with a bicycle seat.  It has a rear second tier with a nose that falls through the middle of the front tier dividing the latter into to distinct sections.  Relatively simple, but I haven't seen it elsewhere.

How about the 14th green as well.  Appeared to be a very subtle two shot reverse redan if my memory's correct.

Mike

[Mark McKeever]

I really need to head up there to check this place out.  Great pics with a bright blue sky!

Any Philly guys want to hop in the car at some point soon?

Mark

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

You should indeed stop by to play it but it's important to point out that a few extra elements would only make Knoll / West even better.

Gents:

Hats off to George Bahto for prodding the folks there to get things moving.

I have always been a fan of Knoll West but the slow pace was indeed frustrating.

Couple of quick comments ...

1). The first three holes are Jersey's best trio for any public course. Just a good opening hole -- provides both the opportunity for a fast birdie but can pick your pocket with a bogey if you fall asleep slightly. Love the spine that runs perpindcular on the green.

2). The 2nd hole is just a great hole -- the green has a slight gully in the middle section with high wings to the side. Have the pin on the center area in the most rear and it takes a herculean approach to get and stop there.

3). The 3rd could be even more improved. The bunkers were restored but I believe the right front in the rear shoulder area could be higher -- sort of what you see with the second at Somerset Hills toprovide the kick-in as needed.

Knoll West could also use some additional length to offset what equipment advances have done -- especiually the glorious 18th hole. Hats off as well to the improved drainage -- especially near the par-5 5th and par-3 6th and par-4 7th holes.

[Terry Lavin]

The cart paths sure are a blight on the otherwise intriguing landscape.

[Matt_Ward]

Terry:

Fair point but they don't come into play for most people -- for those who do I suggest they head over to the companion Knoll East and tidy up their game before attempting to revisit the West.

[Mike Hendren]

Matt, I seem to recall not one but two parallel spines on the first green about 10 feet apart.  Correct?

I knew you and I would someday find something to 100% agree upon - it's Knoll West!

Bogey

[Matt_Ward]

Bogey:

C'mon -- we have agreed on other things -- it just seems that the disagreement are more pronounced -- maybe you need to see the light of your errors.

Yes, #1 does have a secondary spine but it's less pronounced.

The 1st is one of those holes you THINK you should make a fast par or an e-z birdie many of the times. It doesn't happen just like that and it's because the uphill pitch is deceiving in terms of effective yardage. When the pin is cut tight to the far left it takes a deft touch to get in really tight. A great example of what a starting hole can be.

[Ron Csigo]

Hi Matt,

They've recently lengthened holes #11 and #15 by building new tee boxes on each of those holes.  I don't think the scorecards have been updated to reflect that additional yardage but I think that would stretch the course out to approximately 6,900 yards.  Not bad for a par 70 course.

Other than #18, what other holes could you see lengthened?  If I remember correctly, George Bahto mentioned the possibility of a new tee box on #4 on a previous thread. 

[George_Bahto]

“Gents” as Matt would say - hah - Let me respond to a number of your questions

Ron C: New Tees: I turned in a tee plan that would lengthen the course to just under 7,000 yards
Aside from some already new longer tees on #11, #15, a little bit on hole 2, and some on #14, I proposed lengthening the 2nd even more, I had new rear tees on holes #8 and #9 which really changes the difficulty on those holes. These have not been done - YET

I want 30 - 40 more yards on the already tough 14th - which by the way, is a flipped over Road hole green complex, the strip bunker on the left.    BTW, that green has not been expanded all the way toward the fairway on the left - needs to come way out so the huge mound in the green is actually IN the green rather along the left edge

I proposed a new rear tee on the 16th, a shortish par-4 and of course the 18th.

REDAN:
Brent: you asked “So is this one a particularly nice instance of The Redan?”

I have mixed thoughts on this hole after playing it hundreds of times. First, aside from the very nice right kick-in shoulder, no, I do not think this is a “nice instance of Redan”

The green does not slope away from you enuf - typical Banks.

When we restored the front bunker I found about 5' of sand had been added to the bunker floor - a real surprise. I don’t like that you have to walk down into this bunker when entering it. I scared a lot of members when I deepened it so much and made the face to the original steepness.

That said, it is a pretty good hole, especially with the mound running through the green making for very difficult putting at times.

Hole #11's green:

Banks occasionally built a green like that - aptly described as a sort of “bicycle seat" - the point, toward the fairway

Hole #1 is actually a Road Hole green complex but Banks added this two long mounds running through this huge green. Although not a pot bunker in the front left it is a Banks representation on a course built for 30 old men who were millionaires in 1928.

The 2 spines on the 1st hole are not parallel but sort of continuing off on an severe angle, right to left. Putting across these mounds are great fun.

Matt you suggesting raising the shoulder on the 3rd green - true but my mission here was a pure, unaltered restoration - absolutely no modifications, or I would have moved a number of bunker to be more in play. This is one of the few courses that could be restored as original and still have a very fine golf course. Only a few tees were move back in the 1940's when it was a private course and those were done well. Example, the original 18th was not juch more that 386-yards when built.

On the other hand the original tee for the 1st hole was up there on top in front of the pro shop - the hole was about 445.

Also: Matt, the second hole’s green is really a double plateau but the two plateaus are connected with a thin stip of green, in the back left corner

[Richard Hetzel]

Glad to see this thread.

Richard, do you have a photograph of the 11th green?  I can only describe it as a circle overlaid with a bicycle seat.  It has a rear second tier with a nose that falls through the middle of the front tier dividing the latter into to distinct sections.  Relatively simple, but I haven't seen it elsewhere.

How about the 14th green as well.  Appeared to be a very subtle two shot reverse redan if my memory's correct.

Mike

I do, patience my man! Posting right now!

PS:  Matt, 18 holes in 2.5 hours!

[Richard Hetzel]

The 7th hole was OK, the 8th was quite boring and I really enjoyed number 9. I liked this par 3, but the green was covered with a tarp.

[Richard Hetzel]

The back 9:

[Stewart Abramson]

Nice pix. Here's a link to mine from May 2009

http://sports.webshots.com/album/572070140nbaNCt

[Richard Hetzel]

This was one of my favorite holes on the course, slight dog leg left, par 4 #12.

[Richard Hetzel]

#13, long par 3 The Biarritz, that really isn't. I noticed that only the back part of the original Biarritz was being used as a green. I looked twice, and I may have been mistaken due to the winter conditions. Maybe George can clarify to how this particular green is being mowed/cared for...none the less, a LONG hole and EVEN LONGER playing into the wind.

[Matt_Ward]

Richard:

Agree w you on the 8th hole -- just not as good as the others on the outward half.

George B:

I can only hope the new tees proposed actually do happen. The pace of improvements at The Knoll has been rather slow and I'm being quite kind in that regard. The pre-existing shot values need to be brought back to take away what modern equipment has caused to happen. Good to hear about new tees on the holes you mentioned -- #2 should be pushed back to just under 500 yards from the extreme tip tees. Ditto for the 18th as well.

I have to wonder when the course engaged you if $$, or the lack thereof, prevented, the kind of work that could/should have been done all at once. The shoulder being raised on the back right side of the #3 would make for the appropriate kick-in point as one sees at #2 at Somerset Hills.

Too bad about #1 being brought back to its original position -- as you know, there was a grass area there before they paved over it and now have a staging area for carts and the like. What a great place for a tee there. I can say the same thing for a new tee at #10 where the wedding gazebo is located now.

George, thanks for being involved -- without your intervention the West  could just have easily turned into what the East is today. Yikes !

[Richard Hetzel]

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Richard,

Thank you for this. I have not visited this property yet. I get into the area often and will pay a visit.

All Revved up to go now! Looks a lot like Hackensack. George, thanks for your comments too.

Another hidden gem in NJ!

[Ron Csigo]

Rich - Thank you for posting the rest of the pictures of the Knoll.

George - Thanks again for your comments and all your fine work.

Each year, the Knolll gets better and better.  I hope all of George's recommendations are implemented by the club in the near future because the course is truly a hidden gem.  For those that have played the Knoll as well as the other Banks courses (ie Hackensack, Forsgate, etc) in NJ, how do you rate the greens at the Knoll versus other Banks courses?  IMO, the green contours at the Knoll are superb.

[Mike Hendren]

I'd say the greens at Forsgate are even better, particularly with the restoration of its Biarritz to include a front green section including deflection plates and the existing subtle thumb-print in the back shelf.  The smallish 8th green there is a notch above as well.

I can't help but thinking that Raynor and Banks must have had a mean streak given the depths of their bunkers prior to widespread employment of the sand wedge. 

Getting up and down from the front bunker on 18 at Knoll West was memorable.

Mike

[Matt_Ward]

Bogey:

No question -- the greens at Forsgate are superior to that of Knoll West. The restoration of the 17th at Forsgate by Stephen Kay is superb and is a model for what should be done with the 13th at KW. Agreed with you on the 8th as well - in fact, what's amazing is when people speak about back-to-back par-5 holes the Lower at Baltusrol is mentioned but the two at Forsgate are even more pronounced with their differences.

The depth of the bunkers at Forsgate is also deeper - I do credit George B for getting the folks at Knoll West to understand the need to return things to the way they were with their bunkers.

In regards to #18 at KW -- it would be really good to lengthen the hole and put back into play the "fear" element that golfers years ago experienced when coming into that devilish target from say 200 or more yards.