News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


TEPaul

Bunkers in the sky!
« on: February 04, 2002, 05:42:10 PM »
Fellows, I now mean to initiate a sensible and bona fide architectural discussion and hope in the process to not create any high dudgeon amongst you purists and straight hitters (those who might refuse to work the ball too)!

Let me just set the stage a bit by admitting that I would like to see the return of firm and fast ground conditions as much as the next guy so we could all have the option of the ground game again like they used to and do in Scotland, but failing that rebirth over here I'm gonna claim that a lot of modern golf is played through the air and not on the ground at this point!

So, maybe these comments about no trees on some golf courses because they are "bunkers in the sky" should be reanalyzed by some of you at this point. I'm not talking planting trees on the Linksland and naturally open sites but using them where they are indigenous.

Last I looked in the sky all I saw was one helluva lot of air and not much strategic implication for golf up there either. It's always nice to have a bit of wind too up there in the sky to encourage you to work your ball around a bit when its up there. So what's the big deal with a tree or the use of trees to create strategies of particular placement to deal with them strategically or even in the rare case to actually have to work a shot around one every now and then?

This time I'm not going to offer you not my recommendations for the use of trees in the design strategies of golf but William Flynn's, and not indirect speculations about his ideas but from his actual USGA green section articles.

He wrote (in 1927) that the old days of no trees on courses were becoming outdated and that trees could indeed be used well in the strategies of golf.

Furthermore, he remarked that the Scot immigrants' complaints about trees, such as "bunkers in the sky" and recommendations of no trees on golf course were really quite ill-advised, as, if, in fact, the Scots were ever lucky enough to have any trees on their golf courses they were far too frugal to ever think of taking them down!

So clearly he was implying that if they ever had them they would use them cleverly! But no matter to him what they really thought about it because he was definitely planning on using trees to revolutionize strategic concepts in America!

So since there are so many cool and wonderful features on the ground to create great strategies which harken all the way back to a time in golf when it was necessary to keep the ball on or near the ground because the ball was very light and better played there because of effects of the wind then let's admit that was a very good thing for that condition and that reality!

But now that the ball is played so frequently in the sky then why can't the sky have a few of it's own cool and wonderful golf features too? And what can fulfill that bill better than the beautiful, strategically placed tree?

And now I give you three William Flynn holes that create extremely interesting strategies (albeit sometime controversial) with the use of a single tree each. A par 3, a par 4 and a par 5.

1/ The par 3 is Philly Country's #5, a hole that has a fairly high demand shot requirment to hit the green by avoiding a large overhanging tree left greenside and a pond front and right. It's a fairly intense and high demand shot that might require some working of the ball very much within Flynn's stated design priniciple.

2/ Huntingdon Valley's #11, a short downhill par 4 that revolves almost entirely for a good player around where the unseen pin placement is due to an overhanging tree greenside that blocks a high approach to the left side of the green unless the ball is hit very far down the fairway carrying or getting between two fairway bunkers on each side of the fairway. The green is fronted close by a creek with the large tree overhanging it.

3/ Huntingdon Valley's #7, a reachable but very dangerous par 5 that has a large tree in the right of the fairway that forces the drive left but not too far left as the hole slopes dramatically downhill on the left of the fairway.

Let me know who knows these holes or who doesn't so I can describe them better for you. But the point is that all of these individual trees have tremendous strategic significance to the strategies of these holes. Some of these strategies and shot requirements are high demand and intense, just the way Flynn meant them to be.

So I know that you don't like trees but tell me other than simply saying you don't like them what is wrong with these strategies on these holes that they create? They're good strategies, thoughtful ones and quite high demand too sometimes, many of the good things about golf architecture.

If there are so many wonderful features for strategies on the ground then what, again, is wrong with having at least one good one in the sky, particularly since that's were the ball is most of the time these days?



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2002, 05:58:05 PM »
Sahalee comes to mind and it just seemed like too much luck was involved, especially with the narrow fairways and thick rough.  If they had wall to wall fairway and you could carve it around it might be interesting but for the PGA it was like aerial ping-pong... with too much horse s--- luck involved.  I only recall a couple of good bunker in the sky holes.  The 7th at Helsinki GC (Tali) is a par-3 of 165 yards which had a large birch protecting the right fifth of the small green.  Guys who favored a draw would often find the tree.  Now that it's gone the hole has lost some of its interest.  The other is the donut hole at Harbour Town.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2002, 06:01:30 PM »
Tom

Does this mean that "lines of charm" are in fact "planes of charm," given the added dimension?  Exactly what is the proper "maintenance meld" for a $250,000 Monterrey Pine?

I know you know the answers to these questions, but I just thought I'd give others a chance to chime in.

Cheers

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2002, 06:13:01 PM »
Tony:

Interesting that hole that had a tree covering the right fifth of the green! Guys who favored a draw would find it??

What's that all about and what is golf coming to? A modern golfer is looking at a 165yd par 3 with a tree on the right and he favors a draw??? Is it possible for someone to clue in that poor baby that maybe that time he should not favor his draw into the tree and maybe take a little time to learn to try a fade or maybe a straight shot to the left side or middle of the green?

Jeesus, this is hard to believe, whatever happened to the old shot makers??

Don't answer that because I already know! It's another  conspiracy between Finchem and these manufacturers again! Not only are they in cahoots to make the ball go too far but that guy bought himself a $2000 set of clubs and some balls that can only draw! They're ruining the game before our eyes and that player has lost his ability to think! I guess the tree will have to go then.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2002, 06:24:32 PM »
Tom Paul and Rich Goodale

You know I HAD to respond.  I just don't like the damn things, that's all.  Let the architect angle and shape the green to make the "shaped" shot advantageous or a particular side of the fairway preferable.  Just don't take away the straight ball that is hit the right distance from the fairway.

From the rough or other nasty places - all bets are off.  From the short grass - gimme nothing but air.

I'm sure I'm getting heat on another thread for blaspheming that great old tree at Winged Foot by #9 (E) green that died a few years back.  The green was ALREADY shaped for a draw to a left pin.  The damn branches made even a soft draw from the left fairway into an obstructed shot.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2002, 06:43:04 PM »
I was out at The Senior Tour event yesterday watching the guys on the range... nothing new...some guys have just one shot they prefer and can't escape from...like Bobby Locke.  Some with huge drift.  I always thought Ray Floyd was a fader...if so, not anymore.  That was the only surprise...that and Watson canning a 7 iron from the 5th fairway...the shot was as pure as a mothers love.

Some of those guys...had the 7th at Helsinki been on their home course would have either denuded the tree during the summer, rarely hit the green or would have been out there at night with a chainsaw.  I have to ask why that tree got knocked down...if it was a committee member or disease.  It looked healthy last I remember.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2002, 07:11:45 PM »
Talk about denuding, there is a tree on the corner of the dogleg at the short par 4 7th at Preston Trail here in Dallas that has several balls embedded just under the bark and many other pock marks from errant tee shots.

I have never liked courses where trees are dominant to play, but have never understood the "outdated" Scottish ideal of no trees.  As TEPaul alludes too, the Scots left trees when they had them.  Also, if we celebrate using the site's natural features for strategy, why are trees any less natural than the little 2 foot high "diddle bumps" some seem to cite as a feature to design an entire course around? :)

I have always liked trees about 180 to 210 yards from the tee that encroach on one side or the other of the fairway - and an ideal goal would be to have one left, one right, on any course.  The physics of the golf ball dictate that the maximum arc of the vertical and horizontal parabola of ball flight occurs about here - 67-70% of the way through its flight.  Trees here allow the ball to naturally curve around.  Of course, it's ideal to leave enough room to the other side that the golfer w/o the necessary shot pattern still finds fairway, albeit much farther from the green and at a presumably worse angle.

If you place a tree too close to the tee, then it may be hard for a chronic hooker/slicer to even get the ball started.  Too far down the fairway, and it's merely a flanking "bunker in the sky", and not as strategic as one that intrudes a bit on the fairway.

Trees can be similarly used about 2/3 of the way from landing area to green, or even closer to the green to block play from a certain angle.

The last good use of trees, IMHO, is at about 330-50 yards from the tee, arching in over one side of the fairway or the other.  While the fairway may be an "open field" in TEPaul vernacular, there is a "delayed penalty call" in hockey parlance for "careless use of the big stick" in that the tree blocks a direct line to the green.  As a compensation for a player who hits the "wrong side" of the fairway, I believe in leaving the green front open, allowing some kind of creative wild hook or low run up to that player......

And, in Forest Gump vernacular, "That's all I have to say about that......"

Sorry for the "overuse" of phrases in quotes! :) :P
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

NicP

Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2002, 07:41:52 PM »
There would be no more than a handfull of trees in play at Royal Melbourne, it just dosen't need them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2002, 08:54:22 PM »
Man, I love it, some of the things you guys are saying and conjuring up are really fantastic--interesting stuff--and all with very definite strategic possibilites and most definitely  strategic possibilites in the air!

Planes, angles involving both distance and height planning, shot planning for future possibilities and liabilities of height, curvature in the air with considerations of trajectories measured vertically and horizontally! It's great stuff and maybe thinking outside the normal box!

Architects have mostly looked at the ground, worked with the ground, planned on the ground, thought of the ball when it was on the ground, or coming down to the ground--certainly  the linear stuff that goes with that!

But that's not really the way the game is played with the ball, is it? So much of it is in the air!

Rich:

I was thinking of some smart-ass reply to your post about "lines of charm" becoming "planes of charm", but I changed my mind. They aren't the same but there is something somewhat similar obviously but only with the possibilities of height, trajectory or the curvature of shots in the air. Not so much the more directional aspects of Behr's original "lines of charm" ideas. The only thing similar to this and his "lines of charm" prinicple is the last option of carrying over the top of his "line of instinct".

Chip:

Think of what you said about the old tree at Wnged Foot's #9E. Was the tree wrong in and of itself or was it just placed wrong with the orientation of the green? What if it was on the other side? How would that have worked with the architecture of that hole and the green on the ground?

Can't trees, which really might create strategies in the air just be rolled into the whole arrangment of the features that create interesting architecture and strategies on the ground?

Am I losing my mind here or what? Isn't it really best in golf architecture if you want to create interesting possibilities for any golfer to just follow the golf ball wherever it is? Certainly it's on the ground but it is in the air more these days too.

If you just think back to that tree on Pebble's #18 which started all of this, it had some interesting strategic ramifications when it was there but when it died there were some other strategic ramifications too.  And you must admit, the players were playing the hole slightly differently without it! Which was better, with it or without it? Who knows yet, but it appears it made a real difference in the fine balance of strategic thinking! This year at least the players didn't have to think of getting over it only what the ball would do when on the ground or what trajectory was needed to hit the ground properly--that's all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ed_Baker

Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2002, 05:02:01 AM »
Tom:

Interesting thread.

I guess my issue with trees is that I consider them to be temporary and really incidental to the design of a hole and the strategy required to play it.

As I stated on the #18 Pebble thread a truly great golf hole should be truly great with or without trees.

Maybe agronomic technology has advanced along with ball and club technology to the point that virtually every tree can be replaced immediatly and therefore may be considered a permanent design feature, I don't know.

As far as trees overhanging greens, isn't this one of the main issues in restorations, restoring shot values and angles? I still think that a golf hole should be defined by what's on the ground.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2002, 07:23:09 AM »
It's surely true what Ed Baker says about trees that they may be the least permanent type of feature that can be used for golf and its strategies.

They grow, they die, break, change size and dimension at any time, and may effect the entire concept of a hole without warning, if they're central to it, and without much ability sometimes to replace or restore that concept or certainly not without exorbitant cost. The apparent cost of replacing the tree greenside right at Pebble's #18 is shocking as could be, to put it mildly, and one that is of concern not just in cost but as to its impact on the strategy of the hole!

So although somewhat temporary and worrisome they can be used in interesting ways, in my opinion. And certainly using them properly takes some thought and planning like anything else in golf architecture! Face it, a well planned and cared for tree can last for many generations.

Their type, size at maturity, placement due to this, certainly needs to be taken into consideration!--a fact that it's apparent was very little considered on golf courses in the last 50 years particularly!

And certainly trees can have a very important and benefical effect if used for a particular "look" or "style" on a golf course like the "parkland" style that very well may use them prevalently although they may never actually become part of the strategies or primary "concept" strategy of any golf hole!

It appears though, that there may still be a great deal to learn about the use of trees in actual and interesting golf hole strategies and the question very much remains and remains unanswered about what is logically or inherently wrong with using them in golf strategy or strategic and design principle, particularly since the modern game has been so much more tipped to the side of the aerial game!

The aerial game is a reality and the fact remains there is no golf feature to deal with up there except the occasional wind! The tree is simply the most logical feature to use this way!

The examples of features that could alternate for the effect of trees on the aerial game are very rare! The old railway sheds, since replaced, on the "Road hole" may be the best example and is proof of how rare features are that really do effect the aerial game in a real trajectory and distance sense!

It's OK to say that you just don't like trees in golf strategy but that only says just that--that you don't like them--and says very little about why they can't have a use to interest the player in things like "in the air" angles and height considerations of trajectory and distance and such--not to mention the far more basic strategic principle regarding strategic planning for future liabilities! In other words planning shots that may not have to deal with trees on that particular shot but the next one, or maybe the one after that!

This to me gets down to the best of all golf strategies where important strategic considerations are not related so much to the immediate problem (the immediate shot) at hand but some future one (as Behr says). In this way the real essence of whole hole strategies become far more interesting in a unified context and trees may have their best uses in this context!

It's interesting again to consider what Behr thought in this context:

"Hazards (and trees can be considered that--my own words) are not penal areas. Punishment is not the end that penalty serves. On the contrary, hazards are pressure areas acting upon the mind. They make a call upon intelligence. And intelligence, in terms of pastimes, may be defined as the skill of the mind to cope with experience. Therefore if a golf hole is to have form, its hazards ("features"-my own word) must so react upon one another as to create unity. And as a result of unity the mind of the player is projected into the future. Each stroke comprehends not only an immediate problem but a future problem as well. It follows that every hazard ("feature") of a hole, even the hazards that abut upon the green of a three shot hole, must be felt by the player at the tee. Thus the golfer, just as the player of games, is forced to assume immediate risks if he wishes to rid himself of future liabilities."

Max Behr (1926)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

AndyI (Guest)

Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2002, 07:38:23 AM »
TEPaul:

I am familiar with the two Huntingdon Valley holes you mentioned.  The tree on #11 creates many options based on the success of your tee shot.  A well-struck tee shot to the right side of the fairway (and past the right fairway bunker) usually takes the tree out of play and rewards you with a wedge approach over the creek to a shallow green.  Even an approach from the right can be difficult, however, especially if the pin is on the left side of the green because of a hump in the green that separates the left and right sides!

If your tee shot is short or too far left and you don't want to flirt with the tree or lay up, you may choose to hit a lower shot under the tree canopy, relying on the hill (and bunkers) behind the green to stop the ball and taking your chances with the lie.  The three-dimensional nature of the tree as a hazard is key here, as you need to make a risk-reward analysis as to how high to hit your approach shot.  You want to hit it as high as you can to maximize your chances of stopping the ball on the shallow green, but of course you don't want to hit those overhanging branches.  Often, the ideal shot in this situation looks at first like it will hit the tree branches but then drops down underneath at the last instant just over the creek and onto the green!  Of course, if you hit the ball too low and fail to stop the ball on the green, your next shot will be a *very* delicate chip (or putt!) down the hill out of the rough or one of the bunkers to a shallow, fast green sloping downhill directly towards the creek.  It's a lot of fun watching someone attempt that shot for the first time!

I enjoy the three-dimensional challenges offered by trees as hazards, but one problem with trees, of course, is that they don't last forever.  I don't know if you're aware of it, but unfortunately the big tree on HVCC #7 that you referred to is no more as of about a month ago.  It will be interesting to see how that hole plays without it.  It provided a visual cue for the right side of the fairway and, together with the bunkers on the left, gave you a well-marked "chute" through which to hit your tee shot.  I wonder whether more drives may drift into the right rough now that the tree is gone (particularly given the threatening bunkers on the left).  There are some smaller trees in the right rough that might now be brought into play more often with wayward drives, although they are too far right to have the same effect as the big tree.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2002, 08:47:22 AM »
Tom

You would have been well within your rights to give me a "smart-ass" reply, as my post was a bit too much in that vein.  However, I continue to think that thinking in terms of 3-dimensions is an interesting concept.  My guess is that most architects do (and did) so primarily in terms of land contours.  Trees, on the other hand do force the player to think about trajectory, and adding variables to the mental equation can't be all bad, can it?  I think Behr was saying the same.  I can think too of one other good example of a "vertical" bunker which is the big tree which Dye left at the "pinch point" of the 16th at TPC-Stadium.  If you choose or are forced to lay up, this tree forces you to do so close to the water on the right, and the closer you try to get to the green, the more precise a shot is required.

Also, given the recent posts by John McMillan on micro-climate wind currents, it also seems that the effect of trees (and landforms) on how a ball might act in the air can be studied and even predicted (e.g. his example of Hogan and the 12th at Augusta).  If this is so, maybe the archies should  be adding meteorological consultants to their teams.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2002, 09:22:46 AM »
Rich:

Now we're starting to talk and come up with some of the architectural and strategic assets trees can provide if they are well considered in all things golf as well as architecture and with all things on the ground in an overall context!

You gave some good examples too of trees well used that way! The examples are so good, in fact, I think it's apparent by them how trees properly used do not so much become the interest or THE problem to consider at hand but definitely in the strategies of the shots that come before the shot at hand that must deal with them.

This is what I'm trying to concentrate on, I believe, because it can have far more complexity when considering general whole hole strategies, distance control, accuracy and angle and also trajectory far more than even wonderful features on the ground with the shot at hand! And my point being all this should be going on in the mind of the player not on the shot at hand that must deal with the tree directly but the shot before it or even before that!

And in the interesting subject of "trajectory" alone it can have important ramifications well prior to the shot at hand simply because so much of all golf today is played well up in the air from tee to green! It all seems to unify well with the undeniable realities of today's aerial game as the other option!

This could not be a better example of Behr's ideas of future problems and liabilities. His ideas and these things are so wonderful, cool and sophisticated since most golfers don't even understand well the strategies and problems of the shot at hand much less those that are waiting in the future for clever planning in the present!

All great stuff, to me, and trees have somewhat of a unique ability this way dimensionally (in the air) that even the best ground features can never have!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2002, 09:44:51 AM »
AndyL:

You have a very good understanding of both holes at Huntingdon Valley and how a significant tree plays into the overall strategies of each hole. As an additional detail it is important to truly understand the internal slope and contour of #11 green. Basically there is a very clever diagonal contour running in interesting ways from front right to back left that makes all kinds of little compromise choices and shot selections possible with that overhanging tree and how to set yourself up on the green for a far left pin!

#7's tree I did know was a goner and although I'm sorry to see it, the lack of it will actually influence the entire hole strategically in some interesting ways too--very different ways. This hole is reachable and although highly dangerous and demanding to get there the demise of the fairway tree is bound to increase the temptation to go. This is a good thing since the risks for a go shot are just magnificent for the reward of making it!

If the golfer can get up higher on the right of that fairway now off the tee (with the demise of the tree) this will make even an acceptable second shot lay-up even more difficult as the extreme right to left slope in the lay-up area becomes even more difficult from that angle higher on the right off the tee!

#11 too without the overhanging tree will be quite a bit different strategically but will surely hold it's own without the tree because there is so much good architecture there anyway. But that tree makes that hole just that much more unique, in my opinion!

Just another good example of the fallacy of never having a bunker in the sky!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2002, 12:19:28 PM »
Tom Paul:

I am deeply, deeply wounded.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2002, 12:45:01 PM »
I'm in way over my head here.

Someone, please help me out.

Other than (1) their impermanence, and (2) their occasional tendency to reward luck rather than skill, what's the case AGAINST trees -- from the standpoint of strategic design?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2002, 02:03:52 PM »
It's an IMO thing.  Isn't that the heart and soul of all these threads?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2002, 02:06:16 PM »
Chip

It's the heart and soul of GOLF!

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2002, 03:31:08 PM »
Chip:

You can't get off with just the IMO thing this time! We want to know why, why, why? And if you use that old Harvard professor trick and say "just because" then I'm gonna be deeply, deeply wounded!

Anway, this is the opportunity to get pretty deep into some geometric theory here and if the manufacturers are letting NASA design their golf balls then we need to get deep into geometric theory.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt Schulte

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2002, 04:41:57 PM »
One of the obvious challenges with trees is that they are constantly changing.  Pasatiempo comes to mind.  How different is that course today from when the good Dr. worked on it.  I imagine it was dramatically less claustrophobic.

So when using trees must we plant them and plan to cut them back at a certain point.  If so, the designer is really at the mercy of the maintenance staff's interpretations.  As such, the architect has, (as with many situations) lost control of how a hole ends up playing.

I agree with an earlier statement about Sahalee.  If trees are used as a strategic element.  Than the rough must be short enough to allow the "shotmaker" (if any are left) to shape the shot and trajectory.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2007, 09:14:04 PM »
Do we know where the phrase "Bunkers in the Sky" originated?

Could it have been penned by TE Paul?

Kyle Harris

Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2007, 09:30:07 PM »
I'm in way over my head here.

Someone, please help me out.

Other than (1) their impermanence, and (2) their occasional tendency to reward luck rather than skill, what's the case AGAINST trees -- from the standpoint of strategic design?

They, unlike sand, die.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2007, 10:08:42 PM »
I'm in way over my head here.

Someone, please help me out.

Other than (1) their impermanence, and (2) their occasional tendency to reward luck rather than skill, what's the case AGAINST trees -- from the standpoint of strategic design?

They, unlike sand, die.

I think Mr. Kelly covered that in his point #1.....

 :)
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Bunkers in the sky!
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2007, 10:15:33 PM »
I think its all the result of a really bad acid trip.

Who put that bunker in the sky? Why? Why would someone put that bunker in my eye? Can you tell me why? Mr. Sky?

(This coming from a person that has never done the stuff.)

Without trying to read all of this stuff we used to post about here quite frequently, wasn't it because of the proported way Paddy Cole built bunkers for MacKenzie at Cypress Point? That he had copied the cluds that were in the sky?


Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back