Dallas Morning News - 2011 Top Courses in Texas

[David Lott]

A Bill Diddle sighting. Oh, happiness.

[mike_beene]

assume you are referring to Northwood?

[Sam Morrow]

assume you are referring to Northwood?

Boros will haunt you from the grave if you say anything about Northwood.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Matt,

For me the 10 round split between Dallas National and Whispering Pines would 6-4 either way or 5-5. I'm not on the fence, just indifferent. They are totally different courses, and as many have said, both are among the best the state has to offer. For perspective, I consider Whispering Pines to be superior to the Nicklaus course at Carlton Woods.

If given a choice I would rather spend a day at Wolf Point, Brookhollow, or Champions for reasons architectural and otherwise.

Wyatt

[mike_beene]

Sam,I will have to deal with the ghost of you can only hit it as far as you can swing it,but while Northwood is a very nice course and club now,can you imagine it holding a US Open when it was only 6 years old?I bet it would be better regarded if it had never had the open because expectations change. it is one of the strongest courses around here except for the layup 18th and the scary  and poorly positioned tunnels under Alpha Road.At the time of the open that was a country lane at best.By the way,the car park is OB.I believe this was Diddels only Texas course.

[Matt_Ward]

Wyatt:

Thanks for your comments.

Why spend the day at Champions ?

Get a better game with the crowd there ? It can't be from the architectural emptiness that exists there.

My point on DN and WP is how empty GD is when they don't include a course that the folks from TX have rated #1 for the last few years. Do GD raters not have their eyes open.

Wyatt -- last question -- where would you place DN and WP among all courses you have played in the States. Top five percent? Top 10%, etc, etc. Thanks again ...

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
So now you're criticizing Golf Digest for not ranking a course that you haven't even played?

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

What does me playing or not playing a course have to to with what I said ?

You missed my issue -- again.

The fact that state raters in TX have had WP as the #1 course for five years makes me wonder what the hell are GD raters NOT seeing since the course is not rated among their famed top 100. Check what DN is rated by Digest now -- 59th. Where is WP ?

[Andy Troeger]

Andy:

What does me playing or not playing a course have to to with what I said ?

You missed my issue -- again.

The fact that state raters in TX have had WP as the #1 course for five years makes me wonder what the hell are GD raters NOT seeing since the course is not rated among their famed top 100. Check what DN is rated by Digest now -- 59th. Where is WP ?

Matt,
I didn't miss your issue. If you are neutral on this why don't you ask why the state raters don't have Dallas National #1 since its been in the 100 Greatest for years and Whispering Pines has not? I haven't a clue which is the better course having not played WP, and evidently neither do you.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

I don't have to have a clue. I credit TX raters with seeing what WP is about. They HAVE listed it #1 for five straight years.

GD, on the other hand, rates DN but does not have WP listed at all among its top 100.

Beg your pardon -- but you did miss my point big time. Worst of all -- the other mags have the course and GD doesn't.

End of story ...

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
And you very clearly feel that's enough evidence to validate that everyone else is right and Digest is wrong. If that's not your point, what is it?


And since when do you use ratings as evidence for claims? I've done that to counter you when you've disagreed with them and you of course claim they don't know what they're talking about.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

My point -- AGAIN -- is that GD prides itself on being the authority of ratings. Does it not ?

Here they have DN rated #59 and low and behold where is WP ? Not rated among the top 100.

Don't other mags have it included ?

Hello - anybody home ?

Keep this in mind TX raters through the Dallas Morning News has the course listed #1 for five straight years.

How much light on the subject do GD raters need ?

The difference on the rating argument you mention is that I have always believed that state people know more about their
area courses. I would have thought that after FIVE YEARS the GD raters would have seen what WP is about and have it rated accordingly. I guess it's just another example of GD being slow on the switch --ditto for Rock Creek, Kingsley, Black Mesa, WR / Lower and on and on and on it goes.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I have always disagreed with your take on local raters knowing more about their areas than national raters, just based on that one issue. I'll take a well traveled national rater's opinion on any course over some local guy who has never traveled outside the area.

I'll make sure I tell all my rater friends that we have to subscribe to Groupthink to make sure to match everyone else. Having different opinions on various courses is obviously not permitted in Matt's world.

And to get back on topic, if the state raters think that Vaquero is #7 in Texas I'm certainly not willing to assume that I'd agree with their take on other courses. Butterfield Trail in El Paso is at least equal to Vaquero, just minus the amenities. None of this in any way should be seen as a criticism of Whispering Pines--it admittedly looks very good from the photos I've seen.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

The one-time "national" raters that you hug only see a course in a very time sensitive manner. They don't see the fullest range when played over a longer period of time. That's irrefutable in my mind. I don't doubt that if someone stays focused solely on the regional or state level -- the wherewithal to do cross comparisons with other courses outside their state / region will be nearly impossible. I never said otherwise. But ...

If DN is rated #59 by GD -- then WP should be rated among the top 100 given the fact that TX raters have WP holding the top spot for TX for the last five years -- count'em five years !

Andy, stop with the nonsense -- you're better than that -- you and any others can have whatever opnions you wish to have. I've seen more than my share of courses to understand the process quite well.

Please don't mislead the discussion -- I don't give a rats behind about Vaquero or Butterfield. The issue is that other mags have WP listed and GD doesn't -- in terms of the top 100. GD is no longer the leader in assessing greatness in design -- it's panel is shooting blanks on a host of fronts. Just my opinion.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Your opinion on the magazine's placement of WP means nothing to me--you haven't seen the course.  I have nothing else to add.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

I never said I had -- it seems GD raters have not seen it either -- maybe they should given how many Texas raters from the Dallas Morning News and other major pubs have.

[Steve Lang]

The issue is that other mags have WP listed and GD doesn't -- in terms of the top 100. GD is no longer the leader in assessing greatness in design -- it's panel is shooting blanks on a host of fronts. Just my opinion.

a well reasoned opinion.. IMHO

regardless of my problems with some of the 50-100 TX listings..