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Tony Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Colorado Mountain Golf?
« on: January 31, 2002, 01:53:04 AM »
Anyone with an opinion on some of the more storied high country courses in Colorado i.e. Cordillera, Broadmoor, Hiwan, Keystone, Pole Creek, etc? I'm starting a new website, ColoradoMountainGolf.Com, and would love to hear some input from fellow 'purists' on the national perception of the strength of Colorado mountain courses.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colorado Mountain Golf?
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2002, 06:05:03 AM »
Paging BillV... Mr. Redanman, there's a message for you.  And isn't Doug Wright from Denver?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

redanman (Guest)

Re: Colorado Mountain Golf?
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2002, 06:47:47 AM »
Error in double post, sorry

Specific courses

Keystone Ranch-A nice balance of scenery, thoughtful strategy, varied terrain good architecture form RTJ Jr.  One of the best up there.

Breckenridge-A solid Jck course he removed his snignature from.  only muni by Jack in the world.  A very good golf course with vrey small greens bent loaded with poa the last time I was there.  Sevreal very good holes, one of Jack's more interesting courses.  I really liked it, Dave Wiggler would love it.

Cordillera-Mtn-Very very scenic ,a mixed bag, the uphill 9th one of the more unusual tee shots anywhere.  Several holes changed form original, quite a challenging course a MUST play in the fall!!

Cordillera-Valley-A very good example of Fazio's finest white bread, very bland uninteresting golf course.  Most interesting hole (#2) is directly from RTJ's sketchbook dog-leg left around a bunker with a green RTJ probably built somewhere.  Some insultingly banal holes on this course.  A great course for the casual golfer-block out the mental images of the Avon trailer parks and there are fine vast vistas, the golf course is simple and forgiving enough you can play well distracted.

Broadmoor-West-forgettable mix of the least nteresting of Ross' holes and the most cramped of RTJ's.
East-A very fine mix of Ross' best holes and very good holes from RTJ.  Most forgiving, most interesting simultaneously.
South-A fun Palmer-Douane mountain course with awe inspiring vistas and a strategic-penal mix NOT for the casual golfer AT ALL!

Hiwan-Arguably the best J. Press Maxwell coiurse in Colorado, home of the CO open for years a fine interesting test with nice scenery, a private club with pretty limited outside play.

Eagle-Vail-VonHagge Devlin course with some great holes , some nightmare crowding, some real grass growing problems-a tour de force of golf, but one of hte least expensive in the mountains proper.  OK for once or twice.

Vail Muni-basic decent golf, walk carry your own bag!!!!!!!!

CC of the Rockies at Arrowhead-Jack's cliches at their best, a ridiculous set of greens, one of the hardest courses in the state to get on if you're not connected.  Definitely worth a play.

Maroon Creek-Fazio and Aspen collide.  Stories of Don Johnson, Jaaaaaaaack Nickleson, Glen Fry and their females abound.  Other than Sanctuary, maybe the hardest in the state to get on. A really fun golf course, well done, best Fazio in the state, par 3's repetitive, but the terrain limits options as the course goes up all the way to the bottom lift of Aspen Highlands mountain.  Wonderful scenery, some good golf.  For all those that call me a Fazio hater I liked it a lot, I played it 3 or 4 times and continued to like it.  Not more and more, but I continued to like it. :P

comtngolf:
I've got many more and longer opinions but I am not the typist that a Mike Cirba or Tommy Paul is so if you want to talk, e-mail me a phone number.  I am sure Mr Wright will check in also as he still lives there and has played a few new ones I haven't played yet.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colorado Mountain Golf?
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2002, 06:53:46 AM »
The Bear Trace (State-funded Nicklaus courses throughout Tennessee) isn't considered muni?  Upscale muni at least?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill McBride

Re: Colorado Mountain Golf?
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2002, 03:06:54 PM »
I had a chance to play Eagle Vail years ago and was amused by the wide variety of the experience -- some very tight holes up in the hills, some extremely elevated tees, and some real ho hum holes down in the valley.  After the round I was reading a newspaper and saw an article that started, "Players talk about Eagle Vail the way WWII vets talk about Guadalcanal."   I didn't think it was THAT tough!

I loved the original course at Broadmoor - the bells ringing on the mountain above -- the wild greens that looked fairly flat but broke sharply away from that mountain.  RTJ did a great job emulating the Ross greens on other parts of the course, but that finishing par 5 is out of place.  The entire finishing stretch doesn't quite fit in with the rest.  But overall an outstanding experience.  Just keep an eye on that mountain when reading the greens...........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colorado Mountain Golf?
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2002, 04:25:00 PM »
ColoradoMountainGolf.Com,

I've been called out by a couple of folks above. Actually doing some work right now  :-X, but I'll be back to you as soon as I can.

PS, Not sure what your line of demarcation is...The Broadmoor doesn't really fit my definition of mountain golf; if it did you'd have to add a number of front range/foothill courses IMO...

All The Best,

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colorado Mountain Golf?
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2002, 10:09:19 PM »
I'm back...

Welcome Colorado Mtn Golf.com,

BillV/Redanman has given you a pretty comprehensive view of many courses in the Colorado mountains. I will give you my own, which in some cases diverge somewhat from Bill's. Also, as mentioned above I'm curious where you're drawing the line--The Broadmoor really isn't "mountain golf" in my view. If you include it you gotta include a lot of other front range/foothills courses, which I don't think is your MO.   But since you asked I'll review the Broadmoor.

Broadmoor East and West: These courses must be reivewed together, because they both feature 9 holes by Ross and 9 holes by RTJ (they split up the original Ross course when they added the RTJ holes). East is located on the lower, flatter land and has a more classic look and feel. The Ross holes are great, even though they've been redesigned some and the course routing has been changed over the years. The RTJ holes on the East don't measure up. For the most part they're bland and lack the strategic interest and bunkering of the Ross holes. I really like the West more than the East in some ways and not in others. The West is harder IMO, with some very solid par 4s (eg #6, one of the hardest holes I've ever played--460 uphill dogleg to a very severe green) and more mountain type holes. The challenge at the Broadmoor is the greens, which have severe "mountain break" (big time grain/break away from the mtns) requiring local knowledge, much like Bermuda in Hawaii. They can be extremely difficult when fast, and due to their slope they are always difficult.

Broadmoor South (now the Mountain Course) is a Palmer/Seay fiasco. One of those courses that should never have been built. The terrain is not conducive to a golf course (at least not THIS one), with ravines running through many (too many) holes. If iron layups to fairways with flags denoting landing areas are your bag, you'll love this course; otherwise, this is a DNP--do not play.

Moving to more traditional mountain courses:

Breckenridge is one of my favourite courses, mountain or elsewhere. Nicklaus's first--if not only--public muny course has it all. A great routing with variety through woods, open areas and wetlands in a terrific setting. Holes that move both ways, which is unusual for the fade-happy Jack. Par 5s and par 3s of different length and style. The only problem is that what once was an idyllic round has become a round through housing--what's up with that?

Keystone Ranch. RTJ II. I was quite disappointed with this course, which I haven't played in years. Knowing what I know now, I'd feel even worse about it. Just a lot of very boring holes on what is an ideal setting for a spectacular golf course. Any one of us on this site could do a better job with this property than what's there, guaranteed.

Hurdzan's River Course at Keystone opened last year. I've not played it; mixed reviews from those who have whose opinion I value.

In Vail, the Vail Municipal course is strictly for those who have nothing better to do. Not much excitement, with a lot of straightaway holes or doglegs that are only straightaway holes at an angle.

For some reason I prefer RTJ II's Beaver Creek GC to his Keystone Ranch effort. It plays severely downhill through a valley for 7 holes, across the valley for three holes, and then up the valley for the remaining 8 holes. Maybe I appreciate that RTJ II didn't have much golf land to work with here, and made the most of what he had. It's resort golf, for sure, so don't play it expecting "Championship golf," but I found it sporty primarily due to the greensites and contours of some of the greens, like the 10th and 16th.

Eagle -Vail, like Broadmoor South, is DNP for me. Condos encroach on many of the holes, and it is totally schizoid in design. Maybe one or two holes worth playing, but don't waste your time.

Sonnenalp, formerly Singletree, site of the 2001 Colo Open, is an OK Morrish-Cupp design. I like several holes on the front side, including the short par 4 4th and the 8th, which has fairway bunkering that can require choices. In many ways, this course, like RTJ II's Keystone Ranch, smacks of what I call "80's nice design," by which I mean it has some features like green contouring or bunkering that are interesting and well done on some holes but they are not sustained throughout the course (for those in Cali, I'd categorize Half Moon Bay Ocean as of 1995 like this). It's the kind of course that I suspect is not bad playing once in awhile, but you'd grow tired of playing regularly.

Country Club of the Rockies. Jack Nicklaus on streroids. Probably one of the most over the top Nicklaus designs, with huge artificial mounding and artificial contours on the greens.  A couple of nice holes along the Eagle River, but unless your into sado masochism or are Jack himself, not a lot of fun to play. The good news is it's nearly impossible to get on.
  
Cordillera Mountain. I'd not played this course until 2001. Hale Irwin design credit, and I gotta say I was really disappointed. Had heard a lot of hype that this was the quintessential mountain course. I expected and had heard that the elevation changes were WOWs here. Not really.  I thought it was boring, predictable and not really much fun. Would I pay $250+ to play this course? No way.  I'd like to see what a Jim Engh could do wiith this site.

Cordillera Valley. Tom Fazio. BillV/Redanman's review above is quite negative re this course. I didn't find it quite so bad, and agree that #2 a par 4 to a very nice green perched on a hillock is the best of the course. There is a lot of "framing," but I liked several of the shortish holes, like the par 4 7th and 9th, and the par 4 5th is  very fine hole with a great green perched above a stream. I was less impressed with the backside, where there some long cart drives that could (should?) have been golf holes. And the 18th is just a bad finishing hole.

The Nicklaus Signature Cordillera Summit Course opened in late 2001. I'm sure it will be a candidate on beauty alone for GD best new upscale public in 2002. Matt Ward (if he comes out this way) and I hope to play it this year unless the Cordillera folks read the foregoing and ban me from the premises...

Aspen Municipal. See Vail Municipal.

Snowmass Golf Club. Thankfully NLE. Jim Engh is totally redoing the course. I think it reopens in 2003.

There are many others in the Colo mountains that I could cover, like The World's Highest Golf Course (Mt. Massive in Leadville) and the quirky Fox Acres in Red Feather Lakes (which has an exact replica of the 14th green at Augusta National--what a totally cool treat to play!), but I'm outta gas. I'm happy to tell you more if you want to mail me.

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

BillV

Re: Colorado Mountain Golf?
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2002, 08:39:41 AM »
Sonnenalp is probably hte best value in the Vail area.  It is pretty basic, but clearly better than Fazio's effort on cordillera about 1 mile further west.  Doak 4  Cordillera gets about a 2.5

I ran out of typing gas to comment on Beaver Creek.  THe only course i know of that shoots its provrebial wad in the first 4 holes, esaily 4 of the moe scenic, tough holes in CO mtn golf.  17 and 18 have a little interest, but give the first 4 holes a doak 4.5 and the rest a 2.

For comparison All Doak

Cherry Hills 7
Castle Pines Golf Club 6-6.5
Maroon Creek 6
Breckenridge 4.5
Hiwan 4.5
Broadmoor East 4.5
Cordillera Mtn 3.5
C Valley 2
Vail 1.5 (But you can walk and carry.  Just try that anywhere else on htis list except Breckenridge)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colorado Mountain Golf?
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2002, 08:48:41 AM »
What about Sanctuary?  I forget the GCAer who's played there a bunch.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tony Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colorado Mountain Golf?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2002, 10:06:47 PM »
Doug:

Don't have a much time at the moment, but wanted to thank for the input/suggestions... As far as the lines of demarcation, Hiwan (yes), Broadmoor (not sure). I want the site to be comprehensive, offering the finest in quote un quote Colorado Mountain Golf, and the Broadmoor falls somewhere in the middle... Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated...

As far as some gems in the rockies, Pole Creek is one of the finest public clubs I've had the pleasure to frequent. The Raven at 3 Peaks was a definite pleasure (however, I love MacKenzie, and Lehman is from my home town in MN). As far as the River Course in Keystone, a course that needs to be played more than 3 times to appreciated. First time I played it, thought it was a bit on the hokey side. Fourth time, realized some of the redeeming qualities (though I would never pay the $140.00 green fee).

Anyways, thanks again and any ideas/suggestions on the site, etc. would be greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

Bill Wright

Re: Colorado Mountain Golf?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2002, 06:37:58 AM »
Has anybody played Nicklaus' Roaring Fork Club?  GD has it #4 in the state  ;)  Or Aspen Glen? Or River Valley Ranch (Morrish)?

I haven't been up there in 3-4 years so I don't have a feel as to how good/fair/bad these are compared to what I saw on my last trip (just when Maroon Creek opened).

I'd love to hear the group's comments.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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