Cost of a golf course?? How can you tell?

[Carl Rogers]

What are tell tale signs of a high dollar or conversely lower dollar of Golf Course construction cost?   

[Adrian_Stiff]

Carl - I think it depends where you are in the world. In the UK fairway irrigation would be a good indicator, USGA greens would be the basic yardstick.

[Mike_Trenham]

Concrete cartpaths.

[Tom_Doak]

I think if you counted up the number of valve boxes for the irrigation system, you'd have a start ... but some of the inexpensive courses have a lot of irrigation relative to other costs.

I don't know if there's a telltale sign for sand capping.

If you can find the boxes for a Sub Air system, that would be a definite indicator.  Sub Air is pretty expensive, but more than that, no course is going to include it unless they are buying all the other bells and whistles, too.

[Wade Schueneman]

I think if you counted up the number of valve boxes for the irrigation system, you'd have a start ... but some of the inexpensive courses have a lot of irrigation relative to other costs.

I don't know if there's a telltale sign for sand capping.

If you can find the boxes for a Sub Air system, that would be a definite indicator.  Sub Air is pretty expensive, but more than that, no course is going to include it unless they are buying all the other bells and whistles, too.

Mr. Doak,

What would be the cost of a Sub Air system under a 15,000 sq. ft. green (and what would it cost to operate)?  A fellow GCAer and I have been discussing building a mini course with several holes playing to a large central green.

[Adam Clayman]

Not so tell tale,,, I played a place this last summer that skimped badly on drainage.
 Everything was above grade and the place was a soaked mess with relatively little rain. My figuring was that since it was mostly built up, it should've drained much better. I was wrong, unless someone absconded with budgeted materials.

It's likely that the excesses of the 90's, made it very difficult for a casual observer, like myself, the ability to see what monies were well spent and what may have been wasted. Save for waterfalls and the obvious ego screaming accoutrement.

That was until more recent times, where designs-in-the-dirt-teams knock the ball out of the park with no budget, coming in total, under what most spend on just an irrigation system.

I've seen courses get their bunkers completely re-worled, not too long after opening. As a casual observer, my first thought was "how wasteful".

The irony of the last two statements is how the designer of the latter, criticized the earth moving of the former, within this forum.

It's been rumored that some design teams, that don't like cart paths, and know they are no good at building them, don't really care if they are known for being bad at them. Part of me really likes that.

[Tom_Doak]

I think if you counted up the number of valve boxes for the irrigation system, you'd have a start ... but some of the inexpensive courses have a lot of irrigation relative to other costs.

I don't know if there's a telltale sign for sand capping.

If you can find the boxes for a Sub Air system, that would be a definite indicator.  Sub Air is pretty expensive, but more than that, no course is going to include it unless they are buying all the other bells and whistles, too.

Mr. Doak,

What would be the cost of a Sub Air system under a 15,000 sq. ft. green (and what would it cost to operate)?  A fellow GCAer and I have been discussing building a mini course with several holes playing to a large central green.

Wade:

I really don't know the answer.  Better to ask Jeff Brauer, or someone who would be more likely to put in one of those systems ... although I am told I will have to for the one course in China.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Here's an older thread on sub-air costs.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38508.0.html

[Carl Nichols]

I think if you counted up the number of valve boxes for the irrigation system, you'd have a start ... but some of the inexpensive courses have a lot of irrigation relative to other costs.

I don't know if there's a telltale sign for sand capping.

If you can find the boxes for a Sub Air system, that would be a definite indicator.  Sub Air is pretty expensive, but more than that, no course is going to include it unless they are buying all the other bells and whistles, too.

Mr. Doak,

What would be the cost of a Sub Air system under a 15,000 sq. ft. green (and what would it cost to operate)?  A fellow GCAer and I have been discussing building a mini course with several holes playing to a large central green.

Maybe this isn't what you're contemplating, but don't you need more than 1 green? Otherwise you're having to walk away from the green all the way to the next tee.

[Wade Schueneman]

I think if you counted up the number of valve boxes for the irrigation system, you'd have a start ... but some of the inexpensive courses have a lot of irrigation relative to other costs.

I don't know if there's a telltale sign for sand capping.

If you can find the boxes for a Sub Air system, that would be a definite indicator.  Sub Air is pretty expensive, but more than that, no course is going to include it unless they are buying all the other bells and whistles, too.

Mr. Doak,

What would be the cost of a Sub Air system under a 15,000 sq. ft. green (and what would it cost to operate)?  A fellow GCAer and I have been discussing building a mini course with several holes playing to a large central green.

Maybe this isn't what you're contemplating, but don't you need more than 1 green? Otherwise you're having to walk away from the green all the way to the next tee.

We were thinking about one big central green and maybe 3 small perimeter greens. That would yield 9 holes.   

[Don_Mahaffey]

Wade,
That is a very cool ideal.
Done right you could connect the dots from any green to green and have some very cool holes on a very small site.
I hope you'll keep us posted.

[Carl Rogers]

In starting this thread, I had a pre-conception of the response .... such as:
- bunkering ... number, depth, type & amount of edge detailing, slopes
- green & green complexes ... amount of shaping or over shaping
- fairway width... acres of turf

perhaps these items just do not add dollars like I thought they would in comparison to systems

[Adrian_Stiff]

Carl - fairway width is quite linked with irrigation, a course with narrow fairways is much cheaper to build and maintain in some parts of the world wheras in say Scotland, a wide course versus narrow one might not be much in it cost wise.

The details you mention do add up, sand for bunkers is very expensive to buy here in the UK, so a course with 100 bunkers v 50 bunkers theoretically costs more, though perhaps 50 big uns v 100 small uns could distort.

The very basics of building a golf green does not cost hugely more for a golf course at USGA level. I think you might save $5000 on materials/time going non USGA spec per green, as a guide I would say a USGA spec green costs $20,000 per green if you are building 20 at a time, huge greens will add to the price of course. 500 sq metres is standard.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have actually never put in a sub air from scratch, although I have left the bigger ports for them and a few courses have added partial systems later.

[michael damico]

It would be nice to hear a superintendent's view on this topic. I know that alot of man hours are wasted on manicuring bunkers.

[David Harshbarger]

I think if you counted up the number of valve boxes for the irrigation system, you'd have a start ... but some of the inexpensive courses have a lot of irrigation relative to other costs.

I don't know if there's a telltale sign for sand capping.

If you can find the boxes for a Sub Air system, that would be a definite indicator.  Sub Air is pretty expensive, but more than that, no course is going to include it unless they are buying all the other bells and whistles, too.

Mr. Doak,

What would be the cost of a Sub Air system under a 15,000 sq. ft. green (and what would it cost to operate)?  A fellow GCAer and I have been discussing building a mini course with several holes playing to a large central green.

Maybe this isn't what you're contemplating, but don't you need more than 1 green? Otherwise you're having to walk away from the green all the way to the next tee.

We were thinking about one big central green and maybe 3 small perimeter greens. That would yield 9 holes.   

Wade, I've been thinking along the same lines, a 4 green setup with 4 tee boxes that yield 12 holes, and in my case a nice 9-hole routing.  Do you have a public thread going on your course?

[Don_Mahaffey]

I guess there are a lot of ways to determine if a course cost major money vs. a low cost course. A lot of that will be obvious as soon as you see how they operate.
I think the best way to know if they spent major $$$... if just about every golfer knows the architect's name and if that name is used in marketing then you can bet major money was spent.
If the folks playing the course have not a clue who designed it, chances are a lot less was spent.

[Jeff_Brauer]

You really can't tell by the design.  Many Greg Norman courses are fairly low budget with his minimal approach (His last Ft. Worth course cost about $4M, a bit less than mine at the same time.

Flying out west last week, I saw many courses near LA with tell tale "fairy rings" from inadequate irrigation, and others dry around the edges.  If a course is poorly irrigated in either of those ways (or too soft) its usually a sign they skimped on the irrigation.

Partial cart paths are another.  Tees hard as rock (no mix) another.  If a new course, poor turf, indicating not only poor irrigation, but no sod on sloped areas was used.  And of course, lots of rope offs, drain tile projects, etc. to correct drainage that should have been put in there in the first place.