Faldo's 1st design in OZ

[DNGoldie]

Press Release 1/02/02
Nick Faldo teams with Tony Cashmore to design is 1st courses in OZ at 13th Beach Golf Links(Barwon Heads) and San Remo.
Faldo/Cashmore will begin at 13th ASAP, building a course in the rolling cattle pastures north of the existing course, to be opened March 2004.  This land is rather uninteresting but has some shape, but anything can be done with excavators these days.
The second course will begin soon at San Remo, this is a spectacular site on a 250ft cliff drop. Ocean views from every hole, and at least 7 green sites on the cliff.(ala Old Head Ireland...maybe)
I played Faldo's 1st design Chart Hills, S/E of London. I was very impressed with his risk/reward style and many options he gave on every hole.
I know he has since built courses in many other countries, has anyone seen these???

[Chris Kane]

Fine to have a spectacular site, but if it ends up like Old Head, then I don't see Faldo being asked to design many more in this country!

[Tom Doak]

I was going to ask, "Who's going to design it for him?"  But I see you've already covered that.

[Mike Clayton]

Tom

You would have just loved the press conferance.

[Richard Chamberlain]

Are there a couple of new projects at San Remo ??

[David_Elvins]

Could someone please tell me my Tony Cashmore needs a name like Faldo behind him?  With the Dunes and Thirteenth Beach under his belt, shouldn't his name be worth something on its own?

One other related question.  What do people think of The Dunes?  When people talk about The National and Moonah Links on this site, they never seem to mention the Dunes.  I haven't played Moonah Links but wouldn't rate it much behind the Ocean and the Moonah at the National.  

Also, does anyone know about the timing for the Ocean and Moonah at the National.  Was the Dunes an inspiration or was it under development when the Dunes was open in 94?

[Justin_Ryan]

David
I think the Faldo/Cashmore linkup is a mutually beneficial situation where Faldo will get a couple of very good (possibly exceptional) courses to put his name to and Cashmore will get a big kick along in building his international profile.  I would suspect that Cashmore has known what he will be doing at San Remo for some time now, so I would be interested to know what Faldo will be contributing besides his profile and probably a couple of site visits. More widely travelled afficionados have pointed out to me that The Dunes and 13th Beach compare more than favourably to many of the top international courses mentioned on this site, but suffer from an obvious lack of exposure.

Mike
I don't suppose you would like to elaborate on the press conference

[DNGoldie]

I can put some photos on to the site of 13th beach golf links for those interested who cannot make the trip.
Chris, I have not been to Old Head, only from my research do I know it's cliff top scenery.  
Nick and Nick Faldo's design team have courses in countries around the world.  For his 1st crack in Australia I am sure he has more at stake than just his name on a billboard.

[Tony Ristola]

I'd love to see a journalist ask this series of questions:

"Nick, you have completed "X" projects.  How many hours have you spent on the ground cumulative for all the projects baring your name?"

"Isn't it a fraud to just make one or a couple of site-visits, and then become the architect of record when the lads in the backroom and in the field really doing the work, the true architects of the work get no credit at all?"

"Isn't this irresponsible to the game and fraudulent behavior?"

"Is it good for the game Nick, or is it good for your pocket book?"  "Do you really need the money or noteriety that badly?"

"Nick, do you know how to use a transit?"

Has anybody in the press asked any questions like this?They've had at least 15 years and a whole host of opportunity to ask "Signature architects" questions like these.  Wonder why they haven't?  They're journalists after all and these are honest questions.  

[Justin_Ryan]

Tony
They are excellent questions and worthy of a post in their own right.  I would guess that most "name" designers would usually have minimal involvement in most projects bearing their name.

In this case, according to Ausgolf, Faldo will be responsible  "for signing off on the routing plan and the detailed design of strategic values from a Professional’s point of view".  I understand the part where he puts his name on the routing, but I'm not sure I understand what the second part involves.  I would be very surprised if Cashmore allowed him to tinker very much with his design, particularly at San Remo.  I also doubt that there is very much that Faldo could show Cashmore, who is arguably one of Australia's top two designers.

[Brian Walshe]

Justin,

.... and the other top architect is.......?

Brian

[Justin_Ryan]

Brian

  ........ Bob Harrison......  the man responsible for the Moonah course at the National amongst others (along with Greg Norman of course).

[Richard_Goodale]

What with Tom Doak invading your turf, why can't we get Cashmore and Harrison over here with their skills to contribute to our tradition of diversity?

[Justin_Ryan]

Rich
I am told that Tony Cashmore is currently doing three courses in the States, although where and for whom I don't know.

Bob Harrison works for Greg Norman Design in the Asia Pacific region.  He has done some very highly rated courses in Australia and another in Bali, but I don't know if he has ventured to the States.  I think it is better for us if he stays here, at least until he gets his new courses at The National done (hopefully).

Unfortunately we don't have any completed (or commenced) Tom Doak courses here yet, but hopefully he will pick up a job at The National and hopefully Barnbougle isn't far away.  You could feel free to send us C&C at any time as well.

[Chris Kane]

Cashmore has produced some excellent works on great pieces of land, such as Thirteenth Beach and The Dunes, but his record apart from that is fairly weak (I'm told he butchered Long Island?).

I wouldn't want him to go near an already great course with renovation in mind.

Enough of the bitterness: better that Faldo/Cashmore are getting these jobs than my favourite course designers TWP.

[Justin_Ryan]

Chris
You had better hope that Mike Clayton's design business takes off, because he will be the only designer left in Australia who will give you a job after you leave school (speaking of which, shouldn't you be spending your lunch break chasing girls around the playground)  .

At least Cashmore does good work on good land, unlike our friends at TWP.  He has also done some interesting work in country areas, such as Bright up in the mountains, on a shoestring budget.  I don't know about his restorations, but it will be interesting to see how his changes at Kingswood finish up.

[Chris Kane]

Justin,

1. I am at home: I had no classes this afternoon.  My priorities at lunchtime do not extend to GCA

2. I attend an all-boys school.  I won't say any more.

I wouldn't want a job with a company that vandalises good land (and there are plenty based in Australia).  

[Barney Grum]

Chris

When you have finished your homework ( I believe its four hours per night in Year 12 ) maybe you can tell us why TWP are no good. Its all very well for you to say Moonah Links and other TWP courses are no good but if you havent played them how can you comment and why stick the boots in so hard? What exactly is wrong with TWP and are you getting all your information second hand and basing your opinions on others?

All boys school eh?

[NicP]

Barney,

            Were would you like us to start on TWP ?

[Danny Goss]

Nic ( and Chris )

Starting at the beginning would be OK.  

[David_Elvins]

Justin and Barney,

THanks for the chuckle.

But seriously, aren't people being a bit hard on TWP.   I played the Ocean Course at the National and liked it.  I only played it once but I thought it was in the same league as the Moonah.  In fact, I found the rough on the Moonah course a lot more penal but I understand that it has been cut back since then.

I haven't played Moonah Links but what is wrong with a course being long?  I know that a course has to be more than just long, but if players are hitting the ball 40% further than in the 1930s then why shouldn't courses be 40% longer?  I am sure their were plenty of Par 4s in the 30's that the average player couldn't reach in two shots.

Anyway, I guess all I really wanted to say is that I an sure that PWT are not the devil reincarnate.  Lets not get into the habit of bagging them where it is not warranted.  

But at the same time, I would be terribly interested to hear everything that you think is wrong with PWT.  Let fly.

Cheers,

[Shane Gurnett]

The TWP bashing has probably gone a little bit too far. I'm certainly no fan of their work, however I've seen a lot worse come out of the ground in recent years. Maybe one of the TWP boys who visit this site (so I'm told) could jump in and defend themselves. Perhaps Ran could arrange a feature interview with the great man himself.

My main criticism of their work is that it all tends to look the same, regardless of whether its on the Mornington Peninsula, Gold Coast of anywhere else. I just think that they tend to build to a formula and its often hard to differentiate the characteristics of one of their courses from the next. They've obviously become comfortable with a certain style, and their bunkering in particular, and they stick fast to it. The masses seem to like it, but the purists are less forgiving.

[Chris Kane]

Barney,

Shane's previous post sums up my attitude toward TWP pretty well.  Their work tends to be formulaic.

I never at any stage said that they were no good.  My comment that the vandalise good land was over-the-top.  I just find it frustrating that they are getting all the developement work in that area, when many other designers have so much to offer.

That area will be great if there is a variety of design styles present.  To have a number of very similar courses, as I suspect will be the case, is boring.  I'm not suggesting that one designer can't produce very different works, but the evidence so far with TWP is that their courses aren't particularly creative.  Just a generalisation.

[Chris Kane]

Barney, regarding your comment that I havn't played them: I've walked ML when it was near opening, which IMO is a far better way to evaluate a course than when you play it.  Playing it is ok, but you tend to appreciate some aspects better without the clubs and ball and having to worry about your game.

You'll notice that I havn't ripped into the Ocean course becuase I'm not qualified.  I havn't played or walked it yet.  Viewing it from afar, as I did, doesn't count, as you'll agree.