Should international travellers abstain from paying International Rates?

[James Bennett]

I find the easy access of the clubs to international visitors to be a boon.

However, I find the differential pricing to be an embarassment.  I have played at a couple of Adelaide courses with international guests, c/- of work.  Work pays, but I find it challenging that my game is $100 and theirs is $200.

I also find it an embarassment when I am tourist in Italy and pay tourist rates.........

James B

[Michael Whitaker]

Mark - I'm so glad to see your comments concerning Kingston Heath. I felt exactly the same.

[David_Elvins]

Mike - it certainly noticed just how weak the GBP is today, we got no sympathy though as you guys were suffering for the last decade and the Barmy Army made sure you were aware of it!

I guess clubs like Royal Melbourne and NSW will always have demand exceeding supply just like the UK Open rota clubs so their pricing will hold firm, the second tier clubs may have to rethink their strategy especially with Barnbougle appearing to offer super value both on and off the course.

Mark,

I agree that the guest fees for international travellers at some Australian clubs are unneccessarily exhorbitant but like the guest fees at some Scottsih clubs, it seems that clubs have been slow or unable to adjust to different exchange rates and world economic conditions. 

the main problem for royal Melbourne is the very large number of visitors they get from pseudo royal clubs like deal. If they got rid of the free and cheap rounds of golf for these people then they would have room in the budget for reducing the international guest rate.   Nsw is on the right track, they have reciprocal rights with one club only.

I disagree with the high international guest rates, but my intuition would suggest that if you played 5 rounds at royal Melbourne on your visit for below the going rate then you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mark, welcome to our world in the UK. It is very common to have local visitor rate and international rate. It is more abusive than 200 to 360.

[Mark Chaplin]

Leo - pure golf porn!

Tiger - can you name them? I'm a Brit and get no cheaper golf anywhere in the UK.

David - interesting point - I'll gloss over your insult - suffice to say we were guests of the club and not casual players. Several times during the week it was pointed out the Australians do far better from their overseas reciprocols with outward playing golf rather than inward play. I'd be suprised if more than 10 visits per annum are made to each of our (non South African) reciprocols by our members. One of our reciprocols is sending three parties to our club during this summer and most welcome each and every member will be.

Mike - it is the trick the world over to find member hosts, something I have been extremely fortunate with over the years. For the casual golfer who wishes to experience a world class course such as Kauri Cliffs or Cape Kidnappers it is extremely expensive, Pebble is also $$$ but at least they have the history and pedigree to back up the pricing structure.

[Niall C]

Mark, welcome to our world in the UK. It is very common to have local visitor rate and international rate. It is more abusive than 200 to 360.

Tiger

Same question as Mark, what clubs are you referring to ?

I can't claim to have played much down south but I've probably played all but a couple of the top courses in Scotland and I'm not aware of any differential other than at Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart, both of which are American owned and American run. In both instances the price difference is more about the locals getting a discounted rate with the full rate equating to similar courses elsewhere.

I would also point out that tee-times for the discounted rate are restricted and you can bet anyone paying top dollar gets preference.

If the price differential still rankles why not go try any one of the members clubs that make up the vast majority of clubs/courses in the UK. There for a visitor fee, which is the same rate no matter where you come from, you can become a member for the day and get the same service as the normal members. The service might not be very good in that it probably won't equate to anything like the top courses or your average country club in the US (I would imagine) but at least you won't fel descriminated and you  might find a gem of a course and good company to keep you going.

Niall

[Scott Warren]

the main problem for royal Melbourne is the very large number of visitors they get from pseudo royal clubs like deal

It's hard to take offence to a comment like this when it shows such comprehensive ignorance on every level.

[David Kelly]

Having been down in AUS and NZ in February and March I noticed the high fees as well. I got lucky at Kinloch in NZ because the guy at the counter charged me the local rate.  Maybe he was embarrassed since there were no more than 10 other golfers on the property.  I payed the full freight at Cape Kidnappers despite the fact that I was the ONLY person on the golf course. Something tells me that Kinloch and Cape Kidnappers are so far away from turning a profit that it doesn't really matter what they charge.

On the other hand I thought Barnnbougle and Lost Farm were incredible deals and far better than what you would get at Bandon in the summer. I also thought the guest fees were fine in both NZ and AUS.

[Terry Thornton]

Mark,

I'm not a fan of  it. I like to think of golf clubs as welcoming places, this inequity in fees suggests otherwise. Do you mind saying which Sydney course charges $400?

[David_Elvins]

the main problem for royal Melbourne is the very large number of visitors they get from pseudo royal clubs like deal

It's hard to take offence to a comment like this when it shows such comprehensive ignorance on every level.

Scott,  As one of the people who joined Deal so as to get a game at RM, you are supposed to get a chuckle, not be offended.  

Seriously though, the best reciprical arangements occur between clubs of equal status.  Which is a flaw in some of the arrangements betweeen Royal Clubs - the quality, type and status of the clubs is varied. 

It is a bit off topic but I wouldn't underestimate the cost of repricosity for a club like RM and it may influences other costs. 

[Scott Warren]

You say clubs of equal status, but it seems you mean courses of equal status. And even so, one of the two has hosted two Majors and the other hasn't .

You haven't shown in what capacity you're well placed to call Deal "pseudo Royal", and every comment you've made demonstrates you're completely in the dark on this one.

What I do get a chuckle out of is the suggestion I "joined Deal to so as to get a game at RM". I joined Deal to play golf while I lived in London, plain and simple.

[David_Elvins]

You say clubs of equal status, but it seems you mean courses of equal status. And even so, one of the two has hosted two Majors and the other hasn't .

Scott,

What I mean is that reciprocal deals work best when they there is roughly equal incentive for the members of each club to play the other. 

I heard a story the other day about a club that audited their rounds and found for every one round that one of their members played at a certain reciprocal club, there were almost 40 coming the other way.  Clearly not a good arrangement!

You haven't shown in what capacity you're well placed to call Deal "pseudo Royal", and every comment you've made demonstrates you're completely in the dark on this one.

They let you in without a ten year wait and a 5 figure donwpayment. 

What I do get a chuckle out of is the suggestion I "joined Deal to so as to get a game at RM"

Good, I am glad you have started to take my comments in their intended tone. 

[Scott Warren]

What I mean is that reciprocal deals work best when they there is roughly equal incentive for the members of each club to play the other.

I agree there are reciprocal agreements out there that would seem mis-matched (NSWGC and Duntryleague, for example), but at the end of the day it's nobody's business but the two clubs concerned, and if they feel their relationship is such that a reciprocal agreement is right, then that's all that matters.

I'm sure there was plenty of humour intended, but I think your decision to single Deal out for attention and call it "pseudo-Royal" was a bit silly, especially given you've not - unless I am mistaken - visited the club or played the course.

[David_Elvins]

I agree there are reciprocal agreements out there that would seem mis-matched (NSWGC and Duntryleague, for example),

NSW have ended their full reciprocal agreement with Duntryleague, as they have with several other clubs. 

I'm sure there was plenty of humour intended, but I think your decision to single Deal out for attention and call it "pseudo-Royal" was a bit silly, especially given you've not - unless I am mistaken - visited the club or played the course.

I mentioned Deal because I thout that Chaplin was a member their.  Obviously I am mistaken, Apologies for that.  The international rate for Melbourne clubs is loosely pegged to what Royal Melbourne charges.  I just thought there was some irony in Chaplin starting this thread when he had played RM FIVE (5) times in a week for well below the going rate, and then complaining about the going rate.  having to explain this point to you over 5 posts is probably giving it more importance than was intended, I will take more time posting in future. 

[Scott Warren]

David,

I understand your reply to the OP. You could have made your point effectively without the jibe you dropped in about Royal Cinque Ports GC. There's been no need for you to explain it to me over five posts. We both know what you were getting at.

The simple fact remains that having absolutely no insight into RCPGC as a club - or experience of its course - your "pseudo Royal" comment was ridiculous. If you had any knowledge of the club you would understand that.

In any case, the clubs concerned understand the reasons for their relationships and it's not any one else's business. I can assure you that in all the times I have helped entertain reciprocal visitors at Deal there has never been any worry about whose course is better...

[David_Elvins]

David,

I understand your reply to the OP. You could have made your point effectively without the jibe you dropped in about Royal Cinque Ports GC. There's been no need for you to explain it to me over five posts. We both know what you were getting at.

My apologies, I was under the impression that you were able to join Deal without a long wait or a 5 figure joining fee.  In that regard, Deal is not a real Royal course.

The simple fact remains that having absolutely no insight into RCPGC as a club - or experience of its course - your "pseudo Royal" comment was ridiculous. If you had any knowledge of the club you would understand that.

Of course it was ridiculous.  I thought we agreed that was the point of the comment a long time ago. 

In any case, the clubs concerned understand the reasons for their relationships and it's not any one else's business. I can assure you that in all the times I have helped entertain reciprocal visitors at Deal there has never been any worry about whose course is better...

It matters because if the exchange of play is not equal then one club has to take on the burden of cost and that is cost is picked up elsewhere (eg. high fees for international players.)  That is why, with greater ease of travel, clubs like RM are constantly revising their reciprocal policies and in most cases watering them down.

[Mark_F]

What a bizarre thread.

[Martin Toal]

Local rates seem reasonable if the local municipality/state/Gov't subsidies the courses, e.g Torrey Pines etc, and it is therefore reasonable to return some favours to local taxpayers. Perhaps the same argument.

Having said that, I have never seen a UK/Ireland course, many of which get local funding, offer the same discount to locals, at least not officially. I am sure there are some that do, but it must be an uncommon practice. The reality must be that these are simply ways of squeezing more money when there are adequate numbers willing to pay. And if you reduce visitor numbers as a result, perhaps that is just an added bonus.

[Matt Day]

Torrey Pines subsidises the other two City of San Diego golf courses, and the non- resident rate at Torrey Pines is subsidising the green fee rates for residents. Non resident rounds are also capped at 30% of total rounds available

The golf division operates as its own business unit and funds its  operational and capital expenses, plus any debt servicing from their enterprise fund.

[Sean_A]

David

What does a real royal club mean?  Membership at clubs goes in cycles mainly depending on the economy, aspirations of the club and average age of the club.  If you look at Philip's thread about average age you will note the concern with lowering that age is really about managing how many people retire from the club in any given period.  High numbers of retirees can place clubs in the uncomfortable position of either accepting members without proper vetting (and thus risk breaking up the culture of a club) or significantly raising dues.  Deal has been seeking to offset recent improvements to house and course by being more aggressive  in recruiting country/overseas members.  This has nothing to do with royal status.  There are clubs of all sorts with "royal" status.  Go visit Westward Ho! and Royal Blackheath - totally different styles of clubs.

Ciao

[David_Elvins]

Sean, i real Royal Club would pay for clubhouse improvements by holding a charity polo match.

Thanks for your reply, it all made sense, but I think I have spent enough time explaining that I was being light hearted. 

[Mark Pearce]

Mark, welcome to our world in the UK. It is very common to have local visitor rate and international rate. It is more abusive than 200 to 360.

I'm going to join the queue calling Tiger out on this suggestion.  Name courses and rates, Tiger, or admit that this statement is simply not true.  I am unaware of any UK course except Castle Stuart that charges an overseas visitor a higher rate than a local, though, for completeness, Woodhall Spa does offer a small discount for EGU members.

[Michael Whitaker]

Mark, welcome to our world in the UK. It is very common to have local visitor rate and international rate. It is more abusive than 200 to 360.

I'm going to join the queue calling Tiger out on this suggestion.  Name courses and rates, Tiger, or admit that this statement is simply not true.  I am unaware of any UK course except Castle Stuart that charges an overseas visitor a higher rate than a local, though, for completeness, Woodhall Spa does offer a small discount for EGU members.

Mark - I don't want to speak for Tiger, but I think he is misunderstanding the terms "guest" rates and "visitor" rates. It takes a while for Yanks to completely grasp the concept as we don't see much of that over here. I have to admit I was shocked when I first learned how much difference there is between the two.

[John Kavanaugh]

At one point of my life I lived across from a Six Flags amusement park.  I was able to buy a season pass for approximately 2.5 times the cost visitors paid for one day.  This reminds me of the European golf fees.  It is a lie to say that locals don't get lower rates than visitors when memberships are artificially low compared to the one time tourist fee.

[Sean_A]

JakaB

I find it curious that you should care enough to have a distaste for how private clubs run their show. 

Ciao