[Adam Clayman]

The 5th at Shadow Creek has always been my favorite hole there.
They've added a new set of teeing grounds on the other side of the road, making it longer for all you really good golfers.

I disagree with the above comments about the changes made to the course. The increased chipping areas allows for more options around the greens, for creative green missers. All in all the recent work was completely consistent with Fazio's original subtlety found in his original design.

[Matt_Ward]

The issue for those weighing in, I believe, comes down to this.

I've played a minimum of 75+ TF courses -- the ones prior to 2000 (with a few exceptions) are ones where THE FRAME became the calling card element for TF layouts. What does that mean? It means TF and his team realized the importance in creating the creative canvass -- sort of like the postcard pictorial. Give people the eye-popping alignment of man conquering nature and inserting scenic biut often empty golf holes and people could have the grandest of times. It worked very well -- TF courses sold real estate and with that developers kept on hiring his team.

I have seen more recently that Team Fazio is now moving away predominatly from THE FRAME to more detailed and shall I say sophisticated green sites and surrounding areas -- such as chipping areas, pitch shots, closely mown areas where balls can roll even more. The drive zones of many of his more recent coiurses have also been more tailored to accentuate clear shotmaking skills -- not just bash at-will and then move forward.

Generally, when an architect ages you get the proverbial "mail in job" because they get tired and frankly they simply throw forward what's worked previously. That has not happened with TF -- not all of his stuff is a home run but clearly he can still reach the fences with his most recent creative efforts. Please note I say that without having played Gozzer Ranch and The Alotian.

[MikeJones]

I have seen more recently that Team Fazio is now moving away predominatly from THE FRAME to more detailed and shall I say sophisticated green sites and surrounding areas -- such as chipping areas, pitch shots, closely mown areas where balls can roll even more. The drive zones of many of his more recent coiurses have also been more tailored to accentuate clear shotmaking skills -- not just bash at-will and then move forward.

Generally, when an architect ages you get the proverbial "mail in job" because they get tired and frankly they simply throw forward what's worked previously. That has not happened with TF -- not all of his stuff is a home run but clearly he can still reach the fences with his most recent creative efforts. Please note I say that without having played Gozzer Ranch and The Alotian.

I'm just guessing here but wouldn't it be likely that some of his design associates now play a bigger role in the design and the final on site tweaking? I remember doing some graphics work on Shooting Star and that course matured significantly from the original plans during construction. Perhaps the 'new guys' are spending more time on site now?

[Sev K-H Keil]

Cool thread idea, Jim. Seeing soem holes we don't get much chat about on here.

All: Which is the best/most intersting Fazio course within daytrip distance (2hr drive each way, but preferably less) of NYC?

Dear Scott:

Of course, I have to wave the Galloway National flag in response to your Fazio / NYC question --- and with my German driving style getting there in under 2h from UES is no problem... Also, does PV short count?

[Matthew Petersen]

Haven't played many of Fazio's courses, but there are a few good holes at his course at Grayhawk in Scottsdale.




#8 is a par 3, about 175 from the back tees. The green has a pretty extreme back to front tilt and plenty of contour in it, so you definitely want to be below the hole. However there is a hill coming in from the left with those bunkers on it that blocks your view of the bottom half of the green. The hill also tricks the player in gauging distance, as the hill and bunkers seem to be close to the green, but in fact there's a lot of room between them. For a hole that's not very long, it's tough to pick a club.



15 is a nice par 4 that's potentially driveable and presents plenty of options along with another interesting green. It's 332 from the back and downhill most of the way. You can hit a 200 yard drive that finishes on a flat spot in the fairway adjacent to that right fairway bunker. Anything much past that point falls downhill significantly. Thus you also have the option of hitting a drive that will run over the hill. Such a shot could leave you any variety of awkward shots on the downslope or could run all the way to the bottom of the hill where you're left with a long pitch. Or of course you can rip it and try to drive the green outright.

The green itself plays as a semi horseshoe with the large bunker in the middle dividing a high left side from a low area on the right. You can putt around the levels of the green, but if the pin is up left and you hit a drive down to the bottom of the hill in the right side of the fairway, you're going to have a very tricky shot to keep it on the high left side of the green. Nothing revolutionary, but a solid hole.

[Andy Hughes]

11-17 at World Woods Rolling Oaks.  Kyle H convinced me--that stretch really is better than any similar stretch on Pine Barrens, and I love Pine Barrens.

Isn't that always a great moment stepping onto the tee at #4 at Pine Barrens, that take-your-breath-away feeling...

[Bruce Wellmon]

#17, par 3 at The Cliffs at Keowee Vineyards, 253 yards from the tips.

Something like 200 yards from the "regular" tees.

[Ian Andrew]

Number 3 is probably my favorite.  I really like 11 too.

My only issue with the National (and don't get me wrong, I think it is a very good golf course), is that many of the holes are hard just for the sake of being hard. 
 

Mark,

I agree with your assessment of the National. I think the course is too hard, but my biggest issue is that it requires a one dimensional approach to ever green site. I think the penal nature often takes away from what I consider a terrific routing. I’ve always thought that it could be much more than it is with more variety in the round.

I too like the 3rd and 11th, so we agree there. My main knock on the course is the threes. I like the 5th and then don’t like the remaining three. The 15th is simply an awful golf hole.

[Michael Dugger]

Pronghorn Fazio Course, hole #8.  Bend, OR, lava tube hole.

[John Shimp]

Why doesnt TF have a more prominent role in tournament golf?  Not interested in his redo work at angc, quail, etc.  Is it the nature of hs clients or is it more about the challenge missing in many of is designs?   He seems to ave missed the recent wave of "noticed" usga courses as well eg bandon, Kohler, Erin hills, chambers, etc.  At this stage why doesn't he have an important tournament venue?

[Kenny Baer]

The 9th at Diamond Creek (although it should be 18).

The 16th at The Virginian.

Bart

DC has several great holes, I am a big fan of #10 there as well.

[Jim Colton]

Bump for Mr. Troeger

[Keith Doleshel]

The 18th at Martis Camp.

[Mac Plumart]

I like 15 at Shadow Creek.

[Mark Pritchett]

I like 15 at Shadow Creek as well. 

Other favorites include

Sage Valley #2
Wade Hampton #1 and #3, #14 and #17
Wild Dunes (Links) #10
The Farm #6 and #7
Old Overton #15
Fallen Oak #15-18 (really good)
St. Ives #2 and #17

[Mac Plumart]

A mere mention of The Farm brings back memories.  Perhaps the most "memorable" round of my life.  Great course, but my day was truly something!!

[Gary Slatter]

I'm a big fan of the 7th at the National in Canada.

It's a tough as nails par four - and one of the best in the country.
It's set over excellent terrain featuring a great twist in the landing that makes it a tough driving hole.
If you get past the 80's look of the green and bunkers - it's just a great hole.

I played the National many times from 1975 to 1990, love the testing nature.  When my game was off, I`d go to the National and find it.
I liked the 3rd, 7th, 11th, 13th - in fact they are all great!  Shot 40-30 in their first ProAm, Moe shot 69 in 35F weather to beat me (they said he couldn`t play in cold weather).

Ian,

I agree, 7 at the National is a great hole, but number 3 is probably my favorite (I'm sure that I'm in a minority as listing this as my favorite hole).  I really like 11 too.

My only issue with the National (and don't get me wrong, I think it is a very good golf course), is that many of the holes are hard just for the sake of being hard. 

Actually, for those have played the course, I would love to know your opinion of the course.

Mark
Mark

[Dale Jackson]

Wish I could find a picture but I am a big fan of the short par 4 16th at Martis Camp.  There is an awful lot going on for a short hole.

[Mac Plumart]

Oh yeah...15 at World Woods Pine Barrens is one of my favorites.

[Donnie Luper]

I love #17 at Gozzer Ranch along with agreeing with Karen about #12 at Gozzer.

[Kenny Baer]

#16 at Red Sky, spectacular setting and great green site. Also number 3 or 4 at Red sky, can't remember which one but a short 4 w options abound.

[Keith Phillips]

Played Galloway once and was blown away - will have to go to the website to recall specific hole numbers, but I would have applied for membership on the spot if I could stand the bugs.

Was a member of National (Canada) for several years in 90s - a really solid track, considered very tough by many but I thought very playable (and I'm a 13) - good holes all around, but 7 the signature hole, and deservedly so - i think the par 3s are the weak point, all pointing in the same direction, though 10 and 15 are both dramatic

[Andy Troeger]

Thanks Jim--shame on me for not posting the first time this came around.

Gozzer Ranch has a bunch, #8, 10, 11, 12.
Victoria National already mentioned too, but #14, 15, 16 is a tremendous three hole stretch. I also like #2 and 3.
The Alotian Club has some good ones--I like #9 as my favorite.
Shooting Star #9, 11, and 16.
Dallas National #10, 15
Karsten Creek #3, 8, 11
WW Pine Barrens #4
Aldarra #8, 12
Glenwild #12
Whisper Rock Upper #13, 14
Flint Hills National #9

[Mark Saltzman]

Thanks Jim--shame on me for not posting the first time this came around.

Gozzer Ranch has a bunch, #8, 10, 11, 12.
Victoria National already mentioned too, but #14, 15, 16 is a tremendous three hole stretch. I also like #2 and 3.
The Alotian Club has some good ones--I like #9 as my favorite.
Shooting Star #9, 11, and 16.
Dallas National #10, 15
Karsten Creek #3, 8, 11
WW Pine Barrens #4
Aldarra #8, 12
Glenwild #12
Whisper Rock Upper #13, 14
Flint Hills National #9

Andy,

Having just played at shooting star for a couple of days I think it has some really strong holes, but 16? Why do you think this is special? Personally, I thought 5, 11, 17 and 18 were the best on the course.

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
I liked the green on #16, even though it caused me to three-putt. I also have the picture on my desktop at work so perhaps its a familiarity bias! I can't argue with the holes you chose either--there are a lot of good ones. I think #11 is the best individually.

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