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Sean_A

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Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2011, 09:27:59 AM »
Sean -

A course with 18 holes is better than a course with 9 holes.

A course measuring 6800 yards is better than one of 4800 yards.

Do you dispute?

Most certainly.  Neither statement is either objective or a fact.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2011, 09:28:24 AM »
Sean -

A course with 18 holes is better than a course with 9 holes.

A course measuring 6800 yards is better than one of 4800 yards.

Do you dispute?

These statements are not facts. It is easy to put forward circumstances in which either might not be true (even if they are true 99.99999999999 per cent of the time). Therefore they are not facts.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2011, 09:32:17 AM »
Sean -

A course with 18 holes is better than a course with 9 holes.

A course measuring 6800 yards is better than one of 4800 yards.

Do you dispute?

Those are not facts.
those are your opinions, (which are shared by many others) and that makes them subjective
I don't think Dunaverty's much over 4800 yards and I can think of 100's or 1000's of courses that are worse.

In fact if one was to live and play exclusively at nearby Carradale(9 holes-2400 yardsish), Dunaverty(4800 yardsish), Shiskine(12 holes and about 3000 yards)
and then played Machrihanish Dunes (6800 + yards) he might come to the exact opposite set of conclusions/opinions that you have and that would not make it a fact either.

Are you really going to rate a course higher for having a practice range???
or for returning nines???
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2011, 09:34:00 AM »
How about putting it in real world terms:

Let's say you are putting up your money to go play 10 golf courses - would you prefer taking the top 10 courses you could access off of a ratings list or Ran's recommendation?  

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2011, 09:37:00 AM »
How about putting it in real world terms:

Let's say you are putting up your money to go play 10 golf courses - would you prefer taking the top 10 courses you could access off of a ratings list or Ran's recommendation?  

Ran's list.
by far.

which is totally subjective

By the way does anyone know how to access his old UK list which used to be on the site with wonderful short writeups on many/most courses of the UK?Ireland?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2011, 09:37:59 AM »
How about putting it in real world terms:

Let's say you are putting up your money to go play 10 golf courses - would you prefer taking the top 10 courses you could access off of a ratings list or Ran's recommendation?  

It depends what Ran is recommending.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2011, 09:48:30 AM »
Right thats what I expected you to say.
What about a 3 hole course or 4 hole course or a 15 hole course. All these are inferior to 18 holes, especially if they have the same holes. If a great 18 hole course lost 1 hole and became 17 it would become inferior so by definition 18 is superior as a fact.
If a golf course has returning nines it is a fact
If a golf course has irrigation on tee it is a fact
If a golf course has practice ground or does not it is fact
If you look at courses that have staged great championships that also is a fact.

There is plenty of objective fact that could be considered and factored into a formula. I accept a large part of the anaylisis would be subjective.


« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 09:51:42 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2011, 09:54:43 AM »
Right thats what I expected you to say.
What about a 3 hole course or 4 hole course or a 15 hole course. All these are inferior to 18 holes, especially if they have the same holes. If a great 18 hole course lost 1 hole and became 17 it would become inferior so by definition 18 is superior as a fact.
If a golf course has returning nines it is a fact
If a golf course has irrigation on tee it is a fact
If a golf course has practice ground or does not it is fact
If you look at courses that have staged great championships that also is a fact.

There is plenty of objective fact that could be considered and factored into a formula. I accept a large part of the anaylisis would be subjective.




The above are facts.
Whether each fact would rate a plus or a minus......is an opinion.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2011, 09:55:51 AM »
Whether a course has 18 holes or 9 holes is fact. That a course with 18 is inherently superior to one with only 9 is purely subjective.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2011, 09:56:33 AM »
Right thats what I expected you to say.
What about a 3 hole course or 4 hole course or a 15 hole course. All these are inferior to 18 holes, especially if they have the same holes. If a great 18 hole course lost 1 hole and became 17 it would become inferior so by definition 18 is superior as a fact.
If a golf course has returning nines it is a fact
If a golf course has irrigation on tee it is a fact
If a golf course has practice ground or does not it is fact
If you look at courses that have staged great championships that also is a fact.

There is plenty of objective fact that could be considered and factored into a formula. I accept a large part of the anaylisis would be subjective.


Adrian but none of those are what you are saying. Those are all individual x vs y situations you are positing, and we can all agree on them. For your previous statements to be _facts_ then ALL 18 hole courses have to be better than _ALL_ nine hole courses, not just a particular one against another one.

It's a fact that a course has or doesn't have irrigation. It's not a fact that that makes it better. You can't prove that.

The point about facts is that they have to be true in any possible circumstances, and provably so.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2011, 10:22:55 AM »
I heard yesterday of a rater who submits towards a publications world top 100 who has never played in Scotland or Ireland.......now that surprised me.
Cave Nil Vino

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2011, 11:07:34 AM »
You just keep digging the hole deeper, Jim.  The sum total of a bunch of subjective opinions is not an objective opinion, whatever b.s. the magazines throw your way.

Sounded good when I typed it  ;D
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Matt_Ward

Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2011, 12:25:31 PM »
Kevin:

Yes, having no numbers to "rate" courses can be fine -- Ran does that well. But many people are always interested in the ratings and how their courses and others stack up -- plenty of 19th hole conversations -- including this board -- have them and are better for it.

Carl:

I like your "dialogue" suggestion -- I do that with the sources I use when determing where I play and I try to provide likewise to them.

Adam Lawrence:

Read your post following my last one -- agree with your position but unfortunately the magazines weigh all raters as the same.

They clearly are not.

If someone only plays courses in their neck of the woods and you have someone who plays multiple states the sheer exposure factor clearly tips the balance to the second example.

The only other issue of note is the type of analysis provided by the rater. It's not good enough to just plop down numerical numbers on some sort of evaluation sheet and leave things at that. Getting some clear and insightful comments -- no matter whether they be from one side of the spectrum to the other -- shows me that some real thinking has come into the process.

Adrian:

Well said -- people who rate should not assume certain benchmarks (such as whether they have 18-holes or have yardages at a certain distance) to then be rated. Great architecture can come in many forms and unfortunately there are those who insert items as their personal litmus test.

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2011, 01:31:49 PM »
Kevin:

Yes, having no numbers to "rate" courses can be fine -- Ran does that well. But many people are always interested in the ratings and how their courses and others stack up -- plenty of 19th hole conversations -- including this board -- have them and are better for it.


Matt,

Actually, I think it's the "conversations" that people are more interested in, rather than "numerical rankings."  Once you put a number in there, people focus more on the ranking process, rather than what is being judged.

I like the idea of comparing courses and having great conversations about them - I just don't think you need to have a numerical rating to jump start it.  I can take Ran's un-numbered reviews of two courses (say Bethpage & Whistling Straits) and have a good discussion comparing their merits.  Just reading that their respective numbers were 7.43 and 7.53 doesn't do much to start things except add an element of "controversy" to begin with (not real numbers, just illustrating my point).

I don't have a big problem with the fact that the ratings are put out there - there's obviously a market for it from the curious.  I just don't put too much stock in the ratings.  However, as you say, they have value by generating good discussions, but they aren't the only way to start them.

Ultimately, I think the concept of this thread is that having one rater generally leads to a deeper qualitative understanding of the courses' merits, which is a good thing.  And you are absolutely correct that all raters are not equal - the wider the exposure, the more "credible" the comparisons become (it becomes more of a "head-to-head" comparison).  In your case, I would consider your "relative ranking," but I'd be much more interested in your qualitative comments about each course to determine which I may enjoy.


Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2011, 02:04:17 PM »
Whether a course has 18 holes or 9 holes is fact. That a course with 18 is inherently superior to one with only 9 is purely subjective.
Scott - If you read my post I am saying a 9 hole or 18 hole course with the same holes, so a 9 hole or 13 hole is inferior. I am not saying that a good  9 hole course could not be better than a poor 18 holer. I am trying to think of it as benchmarking, so a 9 hole golf course starts out inferior to an 18 holer.

The same is true of a 4800 yarder over a 6800 yarder, if they have the same holes the shorter course is inferior. Again I am not saying a 4800 yarder cant be better than a 6800 yarder, of course it can but it starts handicapped in the ratings, its length will hold it back from greatness.

It is a case of finding a number of criteria that are found in the current batch of great course but thats where the real disagreements will start. If a formula and methodology to mark could be achieved it would be much easier to benchmark every course.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Matt_Ward

Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2011, 02:12:02 PM »
Kevin:

I agree that one doesn't have to have a rating number -- don't know how people can say a course is 83rd versus 42nd !

I prefer courses be bunched in groups -- possibly a top ten, 2nd ten, etc, etc, -- GD used to do that.

Your point is also spot -- qualitative contributions are also needed in order to flush out beyond what the numbers or "bunching" as I mentioned above really means.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2011, 07:25:06 PM »
Adrian:

Quote
The same is true of a 4800 yarder over a 6800 yarder, if they have the same holes the shorter course is inferior.

You've lost me. How can they have the same holes if one is 2000 yards shorter than the other?

How is a hole definitely improved if it's lengthened?

I can think of plenty of holes where that's definitely not the case.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #67 on: March 31, 2011, 07:32:16 PM »
One can argue GD is Whitten from a rating point of view. I do believe this so subjective one needs a varied and statistically large enough number to allow for a balanced opinion to evolve.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2011, 08:47:45 PM »
I think Adrian Stiff's effort to come up with definitive rules for evaluating the relative merits of golf courses proves it's not possible. That's because you cannot go from a statement of fact to a statement of judgment. The whole realm of aesthetics is, by its very nature, an experiential, emotional, personal one. But that doesn't mean that anything goes. The responsibility of a good rater, or of the person who runs a rating team, is to develop criteria, to explain, to educate, and to encourage others to deepen their understanding of the art and to learn to appreciate what they mean when they say that some courses are better than others, that they have more appeal, they are more interesting, more compelling. That's certainly not a numbers game -- it has absolutely nothing to do with length, width or scorecards. it has to do with feel, locality, a sense of uniqueness, of the nature of beauty.

The idea that ratings panels teat all raters as equals is garbage. We select, train, educate, ask them to attend events, encourage them to play as many different courses in as many different locales as possible, present them with lectures, encourage them to read. Some raters who do a lousy job get thrown off -- which by definition means we don't think their effort is sincere, or they are hopelessly biased, or lazy, or a liability to the panel. That surely doesn't mean that every rater is equally qualified or equally skilled or adept. But my job as a critic is always to educate, to explain, the give reasons for why I think certain ways and to commit to that process publicly in print, both in words and in numbers.

There's certainly nothing objective about it. No more than rescanning an out-of-focus original photograph will ever get it more tightly focused. But the ratings entail an exercise that helps people learn about the craft, helps them appreciate the game more, probably makes them better players because they become a little smarter about the ground they are contesting, and awakes others as to the loose consensus about which courses are widely deemed to be better than others. In this sense it's less an absolutist declaration of good/bad than a family resemblance (a la Wittgenstein) regarding recognizable similarities.  

On an additional note, I find it hysterically funny that one of the fiercest critics of the whole process immodestly (as is his wont) declares himself an informal adviser to some raters. This sounds to me much like Machiavelli's preface to "The Prince," where from the lowly vantage point of exile on his farm (to which he has been banished for his suspect political affiliations), he begs Lorenzo de Medici to be allowed to counsel him on the secrets of gaining and securing power.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 04:52:44 AM by Brad Klein »

Andy Troeger

Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2011, 12:21:21 AM »
Brad,
I won't get into the last paragraph of your post, but the first three are excellent. I wish we could copy/paste that into every future ratings thread.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2011, 12:36:46 AM »
I've written about this on here before, but if you believe everything in GCA is subjective then you are accepting that person A's view that Dogtrack Muni is a better course than Cypress Point has validity.

I don't believe that. Meaningful judgements of quality can be made in spheres that ostensibly seem subjective; they are in literature, music, art and so on. They are made by combining the considered opinions of qualified individuals to produce a canon. The canon doesn't have the status of fact; it just represents the best assessment that is available to us at the moment, and it's subject to refinement and even overturning if a future voice convinces informed opinion of his case.

This is pretty standard critical theory, and I don't see why it shouldn't apply to assessing golf courses.



Adam:

That may all be fine when you are watching the game on TV.  But when you're in the game, you quickly realize that IT IS ALL SUBJECTIVE.  If someone doesn't like a course I've built, no amount of explanation is going to change their view.  And if the public in general doesn't like the course, even if it is highly rated by noted experts, it may not survive!

Note that does NOT mean that I would or should build golf courses for the lowest common denominator ... I don't think I have ever been accused of that.  But it is only when you accept that the whole thing is subjective, that you can grant yourself the freedom to think and build outside the box.  The people who think golf architecture is objective are the guys who paint by numbers and tick all the boxes and build the wonderful straightforward 7,200 yard courses I detest.


Adrian:

None of your facts are facts.  Eighteen holes is NOT objectively better than nine; I could name a half dozen courses that were dragged down by building an inferior second nine, where the members of those clubs would have been happier (and wealthier) if they had just been content to play twice around.  Nor is 7000 yards better than 6800 better than 6200 better than 4800.  It all depends on character, and you can't quantify character.


Brett Hochstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2011, 02:13:33 AM »
It absolutely is subjective, but there are certain common assumptions and parameters that can be reasonably followed.  My high school English teacher once shot back at a kid who had just made an awful and thoughtless point and then tried to defend it with, "well, there is no such thing as a bad opinion."  My teacher replied curtly, "Wrong.  There are absolutely bad opinions.  You will not sit here and tell me things like Britney Spears is better than the Beatles.  Some things are just wrong." 
The point is simply that the most subjective things can still have a few clearly drawn lines. That being said however, the more open a mind you can take toward golf architecture, the better.  Consider all things and possibilities when viewing, playing, or designing a course; it is the only way we will continue to challenge architectural greatness and expand our thinking towards the game. 
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2011, 03:40:31 AM »
I am finding this hard to explain, I will try once more.

I am NOT saying a 6800 yard course MUST BE better than a 4800 yarder. or a 9 hole course could never be better than an 18 holer.

I am talking about benchmarking, an equal footing. Take a theoretical course with 9 holes all with the same holes (but less) as a course with 18 holes that are the same...which one is better. Take a 4800 yard course with the same holes as are on the 6800 yarder which is better.

I am saying that a 9 hole course starts out handicapped to an 18 holer.
I am saying that a 18 hole course of 6800 yards naturally starts out superior to a 4800 yarder.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #73 on: April 01, 2011, 09:01:44 AM »
Some may say that ratings are subjective and I would say that the more knowledgeable the rater the more objective it becomes. 

How do you rate a course - do you rate it against the courses which have been recognized as the best or do you rate it against perfection?  There is no such thing as perfection so you have to rate it against those which are accepted as the best - the problem is what if you haven't seen the best?  You can look at photos and watch others play the course but you cannot understand a great course with great conditioning unless you've been there and have seen how great conditioning adds to a course. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Would rankings be more credible with only one rater?
« Reply #74 on: April 01, 2011, 11:41:06 AM »
I am finding this hard to explain, I will try once more.

I am NOT saying a 6800 yard course MUST BE better than a 4800 yarder. or a 9 hole course could never be better than an 18 holer.

I am saying that a 9 hole course starts out handicapped to an 18 holer.
I am saying that a 18 hole course of 6800 yards naturally starts out superior to a 4800 yarder.


Adrian:

I understand what you are saying.

You just can't seem to understand that a fair number of people here don't agree with you.

"More" is not inherently better, all other things being equal.  By your logic above, a 530 yard hole always starts out superior to a 450 yard hole, and a 380 yard hole starts out superior to a 330 yard hole.  I would say in both cases it's the other way around.