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Scott Warren

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Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2011, 10:04:30 AM »
Deal is fourball for the duration of Open Championship week, but then will return to the usual 2 ball M, W, F, Sa, Su and fourball Tuesday and Thursday after 9.30am.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2011, 10:05:35 AM »
Deal is 4 ball during Open week but back to Tuesdays and Thursdays from the week after.

Mike - Scott kept saying yes for around 15 visits from the waitresses last night. As Scott says i'm a very low maintainance house guest, see you in September!!

I'm using the free terminals in Changi and will be back alive from tomorrow starting with "should internationals boycott clubs that charge international rates?"
Cave Nil Vino

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2011, 10:20:36 AM »
No being the perfect husband!
Cave Nil Vino

Sev K-H Keil

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Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2011, 10:23:38 AM »
Safe travels, Mark --- looking forward to the "internationals" thread...

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2011, 10:53:55 AM »
Matt,

I have played the Isle of Purbeck, about 5 years ago. It has some outstanding holes, the 5th is a great par 4 and the long par 3 on the back  the 13th is very good. There are some mundane holes and the course is quite short by modern standards. I don't recall if you are allowed to play off the whites or not. The clubhouse, built of stone, is very quaint and the view from on high looking over the bay is stunning. I'd give it a Doak 5.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Matt_Ward

Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2011, 12:50:57 PM »
Tom:

I will certainly follow-up with you privately. My dates for a visit are roughly from September 4 thru the 19.

Scott:

Thanks for your comments - I'd be interested in seeing your top ten England list -- ditto for others who may wish to provide. I really enjoyed a number of courses in the Liverpool area -- Hoylake, Birkdale and Lytham. Curious to see what courses in the remainder of the country would fare ahead of those.

Pete:

Thanks -- in a word -- do you see playing Purbeck worth the time and effort to get there.

Adam:

My time frame will likely be right after Labor Day weekend here in the States. My plans are for a 15-day journey so time will definitely be on my side. I have been longing to get to the SW and SE for some time -- read much and respect the comments from many who have been there.

Mark P:

Would be delighted to have you join me and whoever else decides to play. I will certainly reach out to Tom and to Sean and James.
My wife is amazed that guys can gather in such ways through a Website -- I say it's the only way to do things. By the way -- should you or others ever head in to my "neck of the woods" happy to return the favor.


Pete Lavallee

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Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2011, 01:52:57 PM »

Pete:

Thanks -- in a word -- do you see playing Purbeck worth the time and effort to get there.


No, I would not go out of my way to play there; if you're in the area I would add it. I think West Sussex or The Addington would far better choices, both for courses and as a half way point between Bristol and the SE; but beware these two courses are tough to score on, no par 5's at Pullbourough, par 68 at Addington.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Matt_Ward

Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2011, 02:02:53 PM »
Pete:

Thanks -- be curious to play the ones you mentioned.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2011, 06:45:55 PM »
Pete: Pulborough actually has one par five - the 1st. Great subtle little hole on a course otherwise filled with boldness and drama.

Matt:

Here's my English Top 10. If there are heavy-hitters absent, you can see whether they have been omitted or whether I just haven't played them by looking at my full list of English courses played by clicking the link in my signature below.

1 Royal St George's
2 Walton Heath (Old)
3 Silloth-on-Solway
4 Royal Cinque Ports
5 West Sussex
6 Hankley Common
7 Rye
8 Burnham & Berrow
9 Swinley Forest
10 St Enodoc

Close but no cigar: Alwoodley, Huntercombe, The Addington, The Berkshire (Red)

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2011, 06:55:23 PM »
Matt

I would recommend Royal Porthcawl and B&B close to Bristol in the SW. Saunton x2 (& perhaps Royal North Devon) / St Enodoc / Trevose are a drive much further down the coast.

There isn't really anything on the M4 East to London till you hit the Heathlands. Sunningdale and Swinley being the two standouts for mine.

In the SE as Scott says I would definitely recommend a trip via West Sussex to Rye. RSG is a must see in the SE - then I would definitely consider Deal over Princes.

Matt_Ward

Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2011, 08:48:45 PM »
Kevin P:

I have played Portcawl and you are spot on with that choice. My wife and I will be spending the day in Cardiff after we land at Bristol.

I appreciate the heads-up on Sunningdale and Swinley -- others have said as much.

I have West Sussex included and I'm really eager to play the big three in the SE -- RSG, Deal and Rye.

Scott:

Thanks for your thoughtful choices -- I'm happy to know I will be playing a few of them when I visit.

Just a quick question -- are the Atlantic links courses in the SW simply underrated by many or do people not visit the area that much to register greater feelings towards them ?

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2011, 09:07:50 PM »
Matt,

Saunton (East) sits in the top 25 in GB&I and I am the odd man out with my feelings towards St Enodoc - most on this site who've played it might have it up around 3rd or 4th in the list of courses in my post above.

Some of the lesser lights - Trevose (a few mins south of Padstow), Perranporth (near Newquay) and West Cornwall (on the road into St Ives, 5-10mins from town) - would get a lot more love were they in a more well-trodden tourist path. I played the former and walked the two others.

Sadly the above is true of many courses in England, while similar courses in Scotland and Ireland get celebrated widely because more people make pigrimmages there. Such is life.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #62 on: April 01, 2011, 03:33:27 AM »
Matt

The big difference between the SW and SE is down to funk VS champiosnhip golf.  The golf in the SW is far funkier (higher dunes, more blind shots and unusual "hazards" - generally more akin to golf as it was over 100 years ago), cheaper, far prettier and more open to regular joe golfers - call it holiday golf.  In the SE its championship golf with a much more old boy character mainly because of the very high green fees and history of championship golf.  That doesn't in the least mean that any of the clubs are less friendly than another, but there is most certainly a palpable difference between the two areas not only in the clientele but in the nature of the courses.  The SW is also much further from London so it loses that city connection that the SE has.  I have a lot of time for Devon/Cornwall as a golfing destination, but I am not sure a lot of "serious" golfers/raters really get the area.

If I take into account those things about golf which thrill me the most and if I am footing the full bill my personal list looks very different from the quality list.  In other words, I would much rather hang in the SW than the SE.

Ciao



New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #63 on: April 01, 2011, 03:50:47 AM »
Mark's request for an England top 10 only makes me realise how much I still need to see, but from those I have seen, my list would be something like...

1. Royal Cinque Ports (Deal)
2. Notts (Hollinwell)
3. Walton Heath (Old)
4. Woodhall Spa
5. Burnham & Berrow
6. Royal West Norfolk (Brancaster)
7. Saunton (East)
8. St Enodoc
9. Berkshire (Red)
10. Swinley Forest

Well that is today's list anyway. Its worth pointing out that I've missed Royal Liverpool (Hoylake) off the list but am gutted to not be able to fit Beau Desert or Huntercombe or a few others on. But then perhaps I don't rate Championship pedigree as high as some others might?

Matt,

If you are able to put your travels back a week or so, you could always give Buda a go?

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #64 on: April 01, 2011, 04:10:15 AM »
James & Scott

How is it that I can love B&B yet you two rate it higher than me?  To make it easier to discuss, could either or both of you compare/contrast B&B and St Enodoc?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #65 on: April 01, 2011, 05:17:07 AM »
Sean,

Burnham doesn't really have much in the way of dull moments. Only really 11 and the approach to 10. Whereas for mine St E has 4-5

genuinely poor holes that are out of place on a GB&I Top 50 course.

Burnham also has better green sites with more fun to be had working the ball off shaping. The likes of 2, 3, 5, 12, 13, 14, 15

and 16 are all spectacular.

Burnham also has more variety in my eyes, not just in length and shape but in the land. The flat ground section from 6-8 really

adds to the course, where I am not sure the holes out on the lesser land at St E contribute all that much.

To match them (B&B first, St E second):

1 v 14 - B&B - B 1up
2 v 2 - B&B - B 2up
3 v 3 - B&B - B 3up
4 v 16 - StE - B 2up
5 v 5 - half - B 2up
6 v 12 - StE - B 1up
7 v 13 - B&B - B 2up
8 v 10 - B&B - B 3up
9 v 8 - B&B - B 4up
10 v 7 - StE - B 3up
11 v 9 - StE - B 2up
12 v 6 - StE - B 1up
13 v 1 - StE - AS
14 v 11 - B&B - B 1up
15 v 4 - B&B - B 2up
16 v 17 - Half - B 2up
17 v 15 - B&B - B 3up
18 v 18 - StE - B 2up

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2011, 05:31:09 AM »
Scott,

Why compare different numbered holes like that?  I assume the reason is obvious to others but I'm a bit lost.

I must admit that St Enodoc is a course I haven't played and represents a big hole in my experience.  It's such a long way from Newcastle, though.....
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2011, 05:33:22 AM »
Swinley Forest is a delightful golf course but it is tough to get on and you are charged £150 for your trouble, a day at West Sussex, Hankley Common or Woking all of which are top of the second tier courses and in first rate condition will cost under £100. The conditioning of SF is not up to the price tag.
Cave Nil Vino

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2011, 05:35:39 AM »
Mark P,

I tried to pair holes with one from the other course that is similar rather than just 1v1, 2v2 etc

Chappers,

I take it you're home safe and sound. Hope it was a good flight.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2011, 06:01:50 AM »
Scott - bit of a mare, I'll PM you.
Cave Nil Vino

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2011, 07:19:31 AM »
Sean,

Burnham doesn't really have much in the way of dull moments. Only really 11 and the approach to 10. Whereas for mine St E has 4-5

genuinely poor holes that are out of place on a GB&I Top 50 course.

Burnham also has better green sites with more fun to be had working the ball off shaping. The likes of 2, 3, 5, 12, 13, 14, 15

and 16 are all spectacular.

Burnham also has more variety in my eyes, not just in length and shape but in the land. The flat ground section from 6-8 really

adds to the course, where I am not sure the holes out on the lesser land at St E contribute all that much.

To match them (B&B first, St E second):

1 v 14 - B&B - B 1up
2 v 2 - B&B - B 2up
3 v 3 - B&B - B 3up
4 v 16 - StE - B 2up
5 v 5 - half - B 2up
6 v 12 - StE - B 1up
7 v 13 - B&B - B 2up
8 v 10 - B&B - B 3up
9 v 8 - B&B - B 4up
10 v 7 - StE - B 3up
11 v 9 - StE - B 2up
12 v 6 - StE - B 1up
13 v 1 - StE - AS
14 v 11 - B&B - B 1up
15 v 4 - B&B - B 2up
16 v 17 - Half - B 2up
17 v 15 - B&B - B 3up
18 v 18 - StE - B 2up

Scott

Its interesting that you choose Burnham's 11th as a poor hole when I think it one of my favourites on the course - the green site is outta this world simple and fantastic.  I would disagree about comments of variety and green sites.  St E is all over the place with greens, although many are contoured in the same sort of manner. 

I will use your matchups

1 V 14 AS: not really good holes to compare as one opens a course and one transitions the course from farmland to good golf country.  I am sucker for average land being used to goo purpose so I rate 14 at St Enodoc highly, but Burnham's opener is one of the best in the business.

2 V 2 AS: Burnham's green is maybe too obvious, but I like the humpty bumpty nature of the fairway  St Enodoc requires a well placed drive to gain a good view/angle of a good green site.  

3 V 3 St E: I like the use of the road at St E.  If Burnham's 3rd green was quicker I may change my mind, but these days its difficult to 3 putt.  Tough call here.

4 V 16 St E: 1 up: With the old green St E wins this matchup, but now that the green is outta reach its a real downer for me.  I like how B&B's 4gth requires the golfer to go in search of the drive and the approach if going for it is fun.

5 V 5 St E 1 up: Both are very good par 3s.

6 V 12 AS: Both are good and tricky par 4s with excellent greens.  Though I think the added yards at B&B puts a premium on the quality of the green.

7 V 13 B&B 1 up: No brainer as St E's 13th is a dreadful hole.

8 V 10 AS: I like both holes a lot, but St E's 10th is a perfect example of why the concept of par is a load of rubbish.  All courses need controversy and St E's 10th is that and more.

9 V 8 B&B 1 up: I am not a big fan of St E's 8th as there is nowhere to go when playing downwind.  The 9th at B&B is pretty, but comnfortably the easiest of the par 3s on the course.  

10 V 7 AS: I like St E's green better and that makes all the difference here.

11 V 9 B&B 1 up: Like the 7th, Burnham's 11th is an unsung hole with a beautiful green flowing out of the fairway.  Once again, i think the added length for the approach at Burnham stands it in good stead to make the green stand out.

12 V 6 AS: I like Burnhams 12th a lot, but St Enodoc's 6th is an epic.

13 V 1 AS: The opener for St E is solid with a good green on the end.  However, after countless plays I still don't know what to do at Burnham's 13th so that frustration level it causes makes me respect the hole immensely.  Plus, the green looks like nothing (see #s 6 & 7) and yet its tough as nails to figure out the break.

14 V 11 St E 1 up: Burnham should win this matchup as it has the topography, but a poorly designed green surround really bangs on the quality of the green.

15 V 4 St E 1 up: The 4th at St E provides what Burnham is desperately missing, a drivable par 4.  Not only that, but poor land was used in creating this wonder.  However, B&B's 15th is a classic links hole rumbling over great land to a superb green.  

16 V 17 AS: St E's par 3 is lovely, but the 16th at Burnham is a cracking drive and pitch hole (not many good ones about) with lots of choices at hand.  

17 V 15 B&B 1 up: For me, St E's 15th is too similar to the 5th even though its a good hole.  

18 V 18 B&B 1 up: Burnhams 18th tops off a superb finish to the course, but it may be a tad too difficult as an 18th for my taste.  I like the fallaway green.  Most of all, I like how the drive calls for a draw and often times the approach calls for a fade.  St E's looks hard and plays much easier as the fairway collects drives.  The short approach is difficult though.  

I am not surprised to find B&B win this sort of matchup as there are virtually no weak areas to the course - its solid 1-18 - B&B can stand up to most well known courses with this sort of comparison (as would many championship courses).  Whereas St E has more ups, but more downs - its erratic.   I would also mention that St E's routing allows for much more varied wind compared to the out n' back Burnham.  This likely lends to the solid V erratic comparison.  

Ciao



« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 07:23:07 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Matt_Ward

Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #71 on: April 03, 2011, 02:11:01 PM »
Gents:

Quick question -- is the SW corner of England generally undervalued by most people.

Minus St. Enodoc which Noel Freeman and Tom Doak have raved about (and a few others) I see little mention by many.

If I am wrong please forgive me.

thanks ...

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #72 on: April 03, 2011, 03:08:18 PM »
Gents:

Quick question -- is the SW corner of England generally undervalued by most people.

Minus St. Enodoc which Noel Freeman and Tom Doak have raved about (and a few others) I see little mention by many.

If I am wrong please forgive me.

thanks ...

Matt

Undervalued by who?  I think those in the know appreciate the SW for wonderful holiday golf, but many foreigners do not.  This is slowly changing with continentals discovering the delights of Cornwall and Devon.  I think a lot of Americans traipsed through the area around Ryder Cup time and judging from comments I heard while caddying many were extremely complimentary. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Matt_Ward

Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #73 on: April 03, 2011, 06:05:11 PM »
Sean:

I am only making a guess at opinions because so little is said on this site and through other sources I touch base with for info.

Yes, St. Emodoc has been mentioned by Doak and Freeman, as I previously posted, but little else has really been covered by the major mags. Even when the Ryder Cup was in Wales last year -- I never saw a sidebar on playing courses in that part of England.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...
« Reply #74 on: April 03, 2011, 06:29:47 PM »
Matt,

I'd say that could be a symptom both of the Atlantic coast being out of the way of more popular golf tourism paths and the more quirky nature of the golf.

Most golf tourists want to catch the big fish, and there aren't too many in the SW of England compared to other regions of GB & I. Pity, because the courses are very good, super fun, affordable and the clubs are as friendly as you will find anywhere.

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