Most penal par 3?

[Matt Day]

the 8th on the east course at Kai Sai Chau, from tiger tees at 232 yards



view from the white tees at 199 yards

[Mark Pearce]

I don't get this thread.  Surely the 17th at Sawgrass is, without any doubt, the most penal par 3, given that missing the green almost automatically results in another ball being put in play.  Some of these may be harder, and most may be better, par 3s but they aren't more penal.

Just for the sake of massaging my ego I'm 1 under for two plays on that hole at Wolf Run.  Something like 40 over for the course, though......

[BCrosby]

Jeff Warne -

Agreed about 7 at Palmetto. As I recall, it is 150 yards, slightly downhill, a big but narrow green, with no water and only one (?) bunker. One of the hardest par 3's I've ever played. Simple, short, elegant and terrifying.

A type of par 3 that could be replicated on almost any course with a small hill, but it's not.

Bob

[Rory Connaughton]

Second for Calamity at RPR,
5 at PV
17 at MGC
I would even go so far as to nominate 17 at Enniscrone

[Cliff Hamm]

I'll throw out the 4th at Shennecossett (Donald Ross) in Connecticut.  Volcano hole that plays around 180 to 200.  The picture is to the right of the tee but shows the severe fall off.  Green slopes to the side.  If you miss right or left or over  and chip/pitch is not perfect it will come back to your feet.  With the green falling off it is all too easy to put the ball on the other side.  Best play, might be short to the alley in front and then have a much easier chip.

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

Nice post -- is your score on the 8th at WC from the tips -- I don't give credit for playing the hole from the junior tees.

[Mark Pearce]

Mark:

Nice post -- is your score on the 8th at WC from the tips -- I don't give credit for playing the hole from the junior tees.

Matt,

If that question's for me, then we're talking about different holes.  I'm talking 13 at Wolf Run (see Mark S's post) and I hit 3 wood both times, so I'm guessing around 220 yards but I don't recall the exact yardage.  I don't think that was the tips, though, I'm not vain enough to think my game suits the tips on most courses, let alone one that delights in being featured on a list of America's hardest.

Isn't anyone going to take up the distinction I drew between penal (which is what the top post asked about) and hard?  Or are we just going to discuss very hard (but not neccesarily penal) par 3s.  Kai Sai Chau looks pretty damn penal to me. 

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

OK ... the 8th at Wolf Creek in Mesquite NV -- is penal, hard and whatever else you want to say.

Also at 245 yards it's not wedge-olla or a short iron like the 17th at TPC or other such holes.

[JR Potts]

The hardest Par 3 I've ever played is the second hole at Isleworth.  I've played it 15-20 times.....and I've probably only made 2 or 3 pars.  There's so much risk out there.....between the trees, the bunkers, the lake and the run-off on the left of the green.

[Shane Wright]

Here is the link for #15 (I was wrong about the hole # above - it has been 10+ years since I played it) at Waterlefe in Bradenton.

There isn't a bailout and the green is VERY shallow.   I equate it similarly to Sawgrass only it is longer and depth perception is tougher because of the marsh.  

http://www.waterlefegolfandriverclub.com/sites/courses/custom.asp?id=1022&page=58906&sid=3137

[Richard Choi]

Man, these are some BRUTAL holes!!!

In PD 14th defense, it is only a 130 yard hole, but it still scares the crap out of me.

Water holes don't scare me as much since you can always drop closer. I wish I had pics from the right side bunker at PD 14th, it is the nastiest bunker in the resort!

[Matthew Petersen]

If you want to say it's Sawgrass then you have to consider that the 17th at PGA West is the same concept, but considerably more difficult.

17 at Sawgrass is 137 yards. The hole at PGA West is 168 to what I have to believe is a significantly smaller green.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

For a hole of its length, the second at Kingsley is rather penal....anything other than short is dead..only a shortish par 3 but a great hole.

[Richard Choi]

I just don't find 17th at Sawgrass as penal because even if I put it in the drink, there is a drop area about 80~60 yards from the green. Sure, I can put it in the water again, but you have to admit that drop shot is much easier.

The problem with some these other holes with gorse and what not is that it is an automatic re-tee or the bunker is so severe that you may not get it out.

To me, that is more penal than water.

[Matthew Petersen]

I just don't find 17th at Sawgrass as penal because even if I put it in the drink, there is a drop area about 80~60 yards from the green. Sure, I can put it in the water again, but you have to admit that drop shot is much easier.

The problem with some these other holes gorse and what not is that it is an automatic re-tee or the bunker is so severe that you may not get it out.

To me, that is more penal than water.

If you drop from the water and hit the green with your next you're no better off than even if it took you two to get it out of a bunker and onto the green. The water is an absolute and thus truly penal. Bunkers and other hazards might be intimidating but there is some question as to what their real penalty will be.

[JSlonis]

Ryan,

I've only seen that par 3 at Isleworth on TV and in photos but it appears that the tree chute you have to hit through is just an unnecessary obstacle and that they block what would be a nice view of the hole.  Does it look much different in person?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

From that pesky little front bunker with the delightful name....#10 at Pine Valley

[Richard Choi]

Matt, if I hit into the right bunker at 14th, I am looking at a SEVERE uphill lie with the green about 20 feet above me (and bunkers at Bay Hill would be a hardpan compare to the bunkers at Bandon). Even if I get lucky and get it out of the bunker, the distance control has to be spot on as if you are short, it will roll back and if you are deep, you are over the green and flirting with the gorse.

I will take an 80 yard shot over the water on a perfect lie over that anyday.

[William_G]

Oh I don't know, 16th at Cypress Point?

+1

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

I'll nominate the 11th at Crystal Downs.  Don't have the card in front of me, but i'm thinking it's 215+.  Very well bunkered.  And, a TOUGH, nasty back-to-front tilting green.  

[JR Potts]

Ryan,

I've only seen that par 3 at Isleworth on TV and in photos but it appears that the tree chute you have to hit through is just an unnecessary obstacle and that they block what would be a nice view of the hole.  Does it look much different in person?

The trees certainly aren't needed but for the tour-caliber membership at Isleworth, they really don't come into play unless you're playing the Tiger tees (back tees) into the wind.   From the non-Tiger tees, the hole's main defenses, while narrow through the tree chute, are not the trees.

[J Sadowsky]

If you want to say it's Sawgrass then you have to consider that the 17th at PGA West is the same concept, but considerably more difficult.

17 at Sawgrass is 137 yards. The hole at PGA West is 168 to what I have to believe is a significantly smaller green.

There is a replica Sawgrass 17 in Davidsonville, MD (Renditions GC), except the wind is often howling.  Doh.

Capitol Hill Golf Club's Judge Course, has 2 entries.  An island green 6th, 230 from the tips, 190 from the members:



And a 256/233 yard peninsula green 16th, that I cannot find a photo for.

[Brian_Sleeman]

The 11th at the Downs is indeed difficult, but the bailout is anywhere short, particularly just short-left.  It is certainly extremely penal if you're one of the few to hit it long.

That picture of Doonbeg has me thinking that's somewhere in the running for the penal category.

I also am not surprised someone brought up the 2nd at The Kingsley Club.  Always a nice place to make either a 2 or a 10 while playing the same ball.  One of my favorite par threes anywhere.

[Carl Nichols]

Bob H:

The 5th at PV is a junior varsity toughness -- compared to the 8th at Wolf Creek when played from tip tee distance.

Played both several times to make that comment.

Matt--
8 at Wolf Creek certainly looks hard.  But other than that, or in spite of that, what makes it a good hole?

[Joe Bausch]

Here's one that only I would nominate. 

Perhaps a combo of penal and just plain hard, the 15th at the public course in Sugarloaf, PA by Cornish plays 266 yards, water in front, woods right, bunker left, with a two tiered green.  I think it has the rare status of being the #1 stroke hole as a par 3.