[Patrick_Mucci]

AWT.

Several architects have indicated that par 5's are the most difficult to design and/or order in the routing.

In my limited playing experiences, it would seem that AWT was the master of crafting good to great par 5's and par 4.5's.

However, it appears that he used a set of "templates" for his par 5's.

The par 5 with the "sahara" feature, either bunker, mounds/rough strips or a combo, the "crescent" par 5 mostly curving to the left, and the end "elbow" par 5, such as the 3rd East t Ridgewood.  Another seeming template is the par 5 where a water hazard has to be traversed on the second or third shot.

When you look at the outstanding collection of par 5's, on individual courses and the entire body of his work, amonst the ODG's he would seem to stand above the pack in the par 5 department.

What other ODG Architect had an outstanding collection of par 5's IN COMPARISION TO HIS ENTIRE BODY OF WORK. ?

[Jay Cox]

Stanley Thompson.  The standout nature of his par 5s is most obvious at Highlands Links, where 6, 7, 15, and 16 are arguably the four best holes on the golf course.  But the long holes at Banff and Jasper are excellent too.

Given the framing of the question ("in comparison to his entire body of work"), I wonder whether those responsible for Pebble Beach might be candidates as well, given the quality of 6, 14, and 18.

As for Tillinghast, I have two questions:
(1) Patrick, would you say that the par 5s are the class of the course on any of his top five layouts? 
(2) Did Tillinghast build only two or three par 5s more often than most of his contemporaries?

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I found your conclusion funny, because Frank Hannigan, in his seminal article on Tilly 35 years ago, concluded that the par-5 hole was Tilly's only weakness.  He did overlook a few in making that statement, but he was thinking of holes you are forgetting, too -- the fairly weak par-5's on courses like Winged Foot and Baltusrol that they always convert to par-4 holes for the big events.


Jay Cox:

I have not seen nearly enough Thompson courses, but I find your comment interesting in light of the fact that Robert Trent Jones, who worked with Thompson for some time, made the par-5's the focal point of his own designs.

[Scott Warren]

Tom Simpson deserves a mention here, I think. Hardelot and Baltray are great examples of wonderful par fives and while his role at The Berkshire is cloudy, it has some great ones as well (3 Red, 13 Red, 15 Red, 11 Blue).

Jay,

18 at Pebble is a Herbert Fowler hole, not a Neville/Grant creation.

[Ronald Montesano]

Thompson built some terribly solid par fives at Whirlpool (part of Niagara Parks system) in Niagara Falls, Ontario. Are they better than the other holes on the course? Perhaps.

I've played some Trent courses over the 10-15 years I've been running a golfing website and what I know is that at least one of the fives is a wretch. At Glen Oak, it's the 18th; at Crag Burn, it's either the 2nd or the 8th, as the two on the back are fantastic. At Seven Oaks, it's number 7. At Bristol Harbor in central NY, it's #6, downhill all the way with a cistern in front...reminiscent of his early par five at Golden Horseshoe Golf.

[JNC Lyon]

Ron,

I see your point about Trent Jones to an extent.  However, neither of those par fives on the front at Crag Burn are bad.  I am a fan of both, although the 2nd might be a little too penal for some people's tastes.  As for the 7th at Seven Oaks, recent tree clearly has almost made it viable for the player to go off the left.  Even without that option, I have no problem with that tee shot.  There is plenty of room out there for a layup, and an aggressive drive down the left is rewarded with a chance to go at the green in two.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Tom -

Although I'm not sure if I've seen this article, I would agree with Patrick. WFW may be one of his weaker efforts, but WF East  has 2 outstanding par-5s on the front at #2 and #4 around the pond. Also doesn't Tilly get credit for the hells half acre at Pine Valley? Many would consider Fenway and Bethpage's best holes to be par-5's. Considering many other good holes that his par-5 templates influence I dont think its fair to call his 3-shot holes a weakness. Maybe not his strong point, but not a weakness.

Patrick -

 I don't know the 9's at Ridgewood, just the 18comp. Is that the hole similar to Quakers #1 with the bunker in the middle of the fairway 60 yrds short of the uphill green? Do you attribute his collection of great par-5s mostly to his employment of these fun risk/reward templates? I might say all of this comes from his belief that par-5s should all be designed as real 3 shot holes, not 3 shot holes that could also be reached in 2 with any regularity, saying that he only contoured his greens to receive shots best from one ideal 3'rd shot... What would you say his weakness are?

[Mark Pearce]

Tom Simpson deserves a mention here, I think. Hardelot and Baltray are great examples of wonderful par fives and while his role at The Berkshire is cloudy, it has some great ones as well (3 Red, 13 Red, 15 Red, 11 Blue).

Jay,

18 at Pebble is a Herbert Fowler hole, not a Neville/Grant creation.

You forgot 17 Blue.

[Scott Warren]

I thought it was a par four?

[Mark Pearce]

It is.  I meant 17 Red.  You forgot that!

[Tom MacWood]

Stanley Thompson had a real gift when it came to par-5s. He produced a bunch of great ones and they are all unique.

[jeffwarne]

I think it could be argued that it was a little easier to build good par 5's when there wasn't a 100+ yard difference between the longest elite players(who've gained ridiculous length) and the average club member(who's gained little length).

When TOUR players hit it 320++ 650 yard holes are reachable in 2 and become awful slogs for the guy hitting it 180.
530 and 480 used to be resonable differences on a long hole designed to be a three shotter
Now it's needs to be 650 and 480-awkward

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

I found your conclusion funny, because Frank Hannigan, in his seminal article on Tilly 35 years ago, concluded that the par-5 hole was Tilly's only weakness. 

I always liked Frank, and enjoyed many good conversations with him when he was the ED of the USGA.
I wonder if he perceived # 13 and # 15 at ANGC as weak par 5's ?
Certainly you could make that argument, especially for the best golfers in the world, yet, they remain terrific par 5's/4.5's.

I did reference par 5's and par 4.5's.

I think you also have to context Frank's remarks.
Certainly, # 9 and # 16 at WFW don't present a significant challenge for the best golfers in the world, but, for the members and guests at WFW, # 9 and # 16 are terrific par 5's/4.5's

He did overlook a few in making that statement, but he was thinking of holes you are forgetting, too -- the fairly weak par-5's on courses like Winged Foot and Baltusrol that they always convert to par-4 holes for the big events.

# 1 and # 7 at Baltusrol lower were only recently converted to par 4's for the modern golfer.

I think you have to remember that most AWT courses DIDN'T have ranges or decent ranges, hence, having par 4.5 starting holes, like on # 1 Upper and Lower provide terrific introductions to the golf course.

Where elasticity was available, many par 5's were able to retain their values/challenge, even for the best golfers in the world, but, when holes like # 17 at Baltusrol, are extended to 600+ yards, uphill, and the PGA Tour Pros still hit them in two, they all lose their challenge.

Since you are an advocate for shorter courses, I thought for certain that you'd champion the par 4.5/5 holes. 

[Bill Brightly]

Patrick:

I found your conclusion funny, because Frank Hannigan, in his seminal article on Tilly 35 years ago, concluded that the par-5 hole was Tilly's only weakness.  He did overlook a few in making that statement, but he was thinking of holes you are forgetting, too -- the fairly weak par-5's on courses like Winged Foot and Baltusrol that they always convert to par-4 holes for the big events.

This may be true, and it is the reason that I think Ridgewood is the most underrated of Tilly's courses. Each of the three nines has a superb par 5, and center has two. The 8th on West (where Garcia took a drop from the mole holes) is one of the best par 5's anywhere, and 3 East involves great strategy and one of the coolest green complexes with three distinct tiers.

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