Golf Digest on NYC newsstands with Top 100

[Sean Leary]

In response to all the comments on Sahalee....

...maybe its just as simple as "raters love trees"

Could be, Kalen. Its a beautiful place and a fine course. I just wonder if it is one of those courses that just scores well in the GD ranking system, more so than raters like it or think its great.

And to clarify, I wasn't trying to make that sound like a negative per se.

Everyone has thier preferences and I've spoken to a lot of golfers who really love playing thru the trees.  They have a few courses like that here in the Spokane area, (although not quite as densly treed from what I can tell from satellite pics of sahalee), including the very popular Indian Canyon.

Totally agree. And local raters probably love them too. But in the last couple of years it should have gotten more rater play with CB opening though right? You would think that that would hurt it thats all. Sahalee and IC are about the same treewise. Although the oneas at Sahalee I think are taller.

[Sean Leary]

In response to all the comments on Sahalee....

...maybe its just as simple as "raters love trees"

Could be, Kalen. Its a beautiful place and a fine course. I just wonder if it is one of those courses that just scores well in the GD ranking system, more so than raters like it or think its great.

Another factor. Golf Digest uses "resistance to scoring". Wasn't Sahalee toughened up for the Senior Open?

Not really. And only a couple of weeks before, so that would not have affected it that much. Sahalee isn't easy but its not super tough...

[Andy Troeger]

I always find it interesting how some people find it so hard to understand or accept how others could rate courses so differently from their own viewpoints. For ANY course on ANY list, you can find people that think its underrated AND others that think its overrated. That should be a relatively dumb and obvious statement, but its basically the nature of a consenus type of exercise.

It would be a bit naive to think there aren't sociological factors that influence raters. No matter how much you try to eliminate that kind of thing, its just part of being human. That said, I don't think the money bit or even general "treatment" really makes a lot of difference in the long run. Most courses treat raters about the same anyway--I can't say as I can recall any rude treatment anywhere. The most fun experiences I've had have often been when I was hosted by a friend that was a member and didn't even go in a rating capacity. I think there's more merit in the GroupThink bit, especially for courses that have been rated in the Top 100 for years.

Also, for those of you that don't think resistance to scoring and some of the other specific categories are important, it shouldn't be surprising that the courses that score well aren't necessarily your favorites.

[Andy Troeger]

I can see how some people would like Sahalee. I haven't played many places in the Pacific NW, but for people from other parts of the country its incredibly unique. If you can get past the narrowness and think the trees work aesthetically, its probably a nice place to play. Just not my cup of tea.

I really hope to meet someone that can explain to me why they like the golf course at Rich Harvest Links. I can see the justification for just about every other course on any of these lists, even if I disagree. That one I just don't understand from a golf course perspective.

[Garland Bayley]

I can see how some people would like Sahalee. I haven't played many places in the Pacific NW, but for people from other parts of the country its incredibly unique. If you can get past the narrowness and think the trees work aesthetically, its probably a nice place to play. Just not my cup of tea.

I really hope to meet someone that can explain to me why they like the golf course at Rich Harvest Links. I can see the justification for just about every other course on any of these lists, even if I disagree. That one I just don't understand from a golf course perspective.

But Andy! What about the extensive lining of fairways with OB due to being built in a housing development?
How can Golf Digest put a course 50th in the country with all that housing around? Has housing on golf courses become so common that raters accept it as the norm?

I guess the advantage to Douglas Fir is that they can keep your ball in bounds as I have well learned here in the Pacific NW. Maybe raters give extra points for that.

[Andy Troeger]

Garland,
I'm not sure I get where you're going with the housing analogy? I remember some peripheral housing/OB, but you couldn't hit it through the trees to get there anyway!

[Richard Choi]

I have finally got my hands on Gold Digest, and the Washington state list is a joke, I am not even talking about Sahalee. Gold Mountain is nowhere to be seen and Eaglemont (!!?) is rated at #10. Seriously??? I am almost surprised that Bear Creek is not on the list.

Andy, I would agree with you if Sahalee didn't have one of the most boring set of greens I have ever seen. I can see how some people might like narrow tree corridor and some nice elevation changes in fairways (only on South 9, though), but how could they overlook the most generic set of greens this side of Torrey Pines?

The only way GD list makes ANY sense is if conditioning (above all else), difficulty, and exclusivity trumps actual architecture.

It is very interesting that GD is supposed to have pretty select raters, but the end result is pretty similar to what Joe Schmo the beer drinking cartballer would rate.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,
I'm not sure I get where you're going with the housing analogy? I remember some peripheral housing/OB, but you couldn't hit it through the trees to get there anyway!

What analogy. I'm talking fact here!
 
Now that I look closer I'm really disgusted. We have a lousy course here in the Portland area that has 17 holes of OB left. I see now that Sahalee is almost the same spokes on a wheel configuration, and has nearly as many. And trust me, I can put balls OB left over and around huge Doug. firs. I do it all of the time.

[Kalen Braley]

Hey Richard,

Did any East Side Courses make it?  I'm hoping Indian Canyon maybe? 

[Richard Choi]

Nope, Indian Canyon is nowhere to be seen (Palouse is #7, where the heck is Wine Valley?). I think munis are not thought of very highly by GD raters...

[Garland Bayley]

Hey Richard,

Did any East Side Courses make it?  I'm hoping Indian Canyon maybe? 

Not Indian Canyon, but Palouse Ridge made it as well as Desert Canyon. What a joke. No Wine Valley.

Palouse Ridge rightfully fell off of Golf Week this year while Wine Valley rightfully moved up. Is Golf Digest owned by one of the golf cart companies?

[Garland Bayley]

Nope, Indian Canyon is nowhere to be seen (Palouse is #7, where the heck is Wine Valley?). I think munis are not thought of very highly by GD raters...

Yep, and it seems it is a lot easier to get on Pine Valley than it is to get on Augusta National.

[Sean Leary]

Doubt WV got enough ratings...

[Garland Bayley]

Doubt WV got enough ratings...

I was under the impression that you didn't have to have the big number of ratings to make the state lists.

[Richard Choi]

Sean, that was my thinking until I saw Palouse Ridge. How could you have Palouse Ridge there, but not Wine Valley?

[Matt_Ward]

Shivas:

I do have a thick skin -- but my sister-in-law can't speak for herself. You are a class guy -- happy to debate any poibut be mindful of words that spill into other people who were born with something they had no control.

Gents:

The GD listing is out of step -- if one takes WA state alone -- the creation of a Wine Valley speaks volumes on where golf needs to go. So where is it listed? Sahalee? A joke indeed.

The east coast is no better and frankly the mountain time zone is held back because the 45+ rater benchmark is more easily accomplished through a groupthink mode that simply repeats certain aging and tired dinosaurs. I can name 20 of the current top 100 that are at worst questionable and no less than 10 that need to say adios. The replacements are more than capable and just need a bit more exposure -- and I am speaking about more than the Rock Creek type courses.

[Andy Troeger]

Garland,
Should I assume you are looking at a routing map and have never played the course? Have you at least been there?  There are plenty of things to critique without getting into stuff that's not really there.  There are at least 2-3 holes with the huge trees in the fairways!

And no, I don't believe even you could get around the trees. I can hit it as crooked as anyone I know, and I couldn't get it around those trees. Light doesn't even get through those suckers, let alone golf balls.

Richard,
My point was solely that it has something unique going for it. I don't really remember the greens very well, which probably supports your point.

Wine Valley won't be considered until the next list. Ditto Ballyhack from about three pages back. Courses that would have been best new last year weren't visited.

[Kalen Braley]

Hey Richard,

Did any East Side Courses make it?  I'm hoping Indian Canyon maybe?  

Not Indian Canyon, but Palouse Ridge made it as well as Desert Canyon. What a joke. No Wine Valley.

Palouse Ridge rightfully fell off of Golf Week this year while Wine Valley rightfully moved up. Is Golf Digest owned by one of the golf cart companies?

Agreed.  Palouse Ridge is a good golf course but Wine Valley is exceptional.  Its easily in the top 10 courses in WA state and IMO is a top 100 in the USA course as well.

Edit:  Looks like Andy clarified why WV was left off.

[John Shimp]

 Its a weak list.  Too many courses that clearly wont stand the test of time but are new, want GD validation, work hard to get raters out, and serve a fine free slider at the turn...

The other issue with this list and the others is that none of us need these lists to tell us that cypress, Ngla, and about 40 others are really great and always will be. It's the decisions at the margins that characterize the different lists.  To me, GD consistently overhypes new, high end, high service courses that will nearly always be replaced in 10 years. Those raters go for the big splash too often and the list lacks authenticity as a result.  

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,
Should I assume you are looking at a routing map and have never played the course? ...

You are right. I have never played the course. However, I am looking on Google Earth, and can count the trees, and can pick out the house roof tops that would be in danger of my towering slices that not only have been known to clear the tops of very mature stands of Douglas fir trees but carry across the adjacent streets to endanger houses.

[Andy Troeger]

Garland,
I'm not going to debate you based on google earth. If you can hit a house more power to you, but it wouldn't be the courses fault. You certainly don't see any of them playing the golf course.

[Travis Dewire]

Jim:

I agree w 4 of 5 of your courses that need to go out -- have not played Eagle Point yet. Agree w your take on 4 of 5 that should go in -- have not played Giant Ridge -- yet.

I will provide a few others from my side as well -- both in and out. Curious to your comments and those from others.

Travis:

Can you post your top 15 from The Bay State ?

Happy to comment my side once you do.

thanks,

Matt, I could try, but this is no true list i am no where near qualified, I will throw a bunch out, in no particular order;

tcc, kittansett, worcester, myopia, essex, brae burn, salem, dedham c and pc, taconic, charles river perhaps The Orchards in South Haldley too. Don't get me wrong, all the courses listed are best in state.

Anyone name the only four courses in MA to host a U.S open? All four are listed....

[Travis Dewire]

LOL, and of course Eastward Ho!

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,
I'm not going to debate you based on google earth. If you can hit a house more power to you, but it wouldn't be the courses fault. You certainly don't see any of them playing the golf course.

Of course it would be the courses fault. It is just plain silly architecture to make 14 or 15 holes have OB, and have OB all on the same side. It is not a golf course to be taken seriously if they engage in that kind of monotonous repetition. Monotonous trees. Monotonous routing. Monotonous penalty.

As you probably gathered from this thread, many here think Golf Digest is no longer to be taken seriously when they engage in such sillyness.

Isn't about time a good person like you said good bye to the Golf Digest rating team and the dark side.

Let the force be with you.

[Andy Troeger]

Garland,
I think there was a compliment in there somewhere, so I'm just going to let the rest go. Black is my best color anyway.