Golf Digest on NYC newsstands with Top 100

[Garland Bayley]

The only caveat I would add to the last two pages of discussion, and not that its anything new to this group.

But when you talk to the average weekend warrior, these are the things they say they love:

1)  Fast golf carts with smooth paths
2)  Green fairways and even greener greens without a blade of grass out of place
3)  Lush ponds and fountains
4)  Nice "extras" in the form of food, cart girl, beverages.


I'm all for winning hearts and minds in trying to expose to people I play with what good golf should be about, but try as I might, I've have limited luck and they still seem to want what they want.

Thank you for writing this.  You're 100% correct.  And it doesn't just apply to the weekend warrior....it applies to 98% of US golfers - both pubic and private.

I dare say that far more than 2% of the US golfers are walkers that couldn't care less about carts and cart paths. As a matter of fact, they probably swear every time their ball hits a cart path.

They also think carts are extremely tacky, and an eyesore in a natural environment such as a golf course.

[JR Potts]

but credible enough to get a pass from 98% of the stupid people on this site.

Wow.....tough language.

Looks like KBM is now on my list.

[Garland Bayley]

but credible enough to get a pass from 98% of the stupid people on this site.

Wow.....tough language.

Looks like KBM is now on my list.

Whew! I didn't exceed Kelly's threshold for stupidity.

[Kalen Braley]

The only caveat I would add to the last two pages of discussion, and not that its anything new to this group.

But when you talk to the average weekend warrior, these are the things they say they love:

1)  Fast golf carts with smooth paths
2)  Green fairways and even greener greens without a blade of grass out of place
3)  Lush ponds and fountains
4)  Nice "extras" in the form of food, cart girl, beverages.


I'm all for winning hearts and minds in trying to expose to people I play with what good golf should be about, but try as I might, I've have limited luck and they still seem to want what they want.

Not just carts, but fast carts. Is this the preteen portion of 98% of all golfers. I don't buy it.

Without a blade of grass out of place- Extreme language. I don't buy it.

Lush pond. What is a lush pond? Is it filled to excess with beer?

Fountains- I have never heard of golfers asking for fountains. They may like the fountains that exist and will comment on it, but I doubt seriously if polled one of the top things a golfer will ask for is a fountain.

Your list is barely credible, but credible enough to get a pass from 98% of the stupid people on this site.

Kelly, you would be right.  It is a bit exaggerated but not much.  Consider the following:

Recently a muni here in Spokane was renovated, specifically Liberty Lake golf course.  http://www.spokanecounty.org/parks/content.aspx?c=1852

I've done some informal polling on what my friends and others I've met on the course think about the changes.  I offered no suggestions nor asked leading questions.....just a simple "what do you think of the new course compared to the old one".  I'll list what the top 5 "positive" comments were in order of most common to least.  As a bonus, i'll list the #1 "negative" comment:  

Top 5 positive comments:
1)  The addition of 3 new ponds to the course - This wasn't even close, everyone mentioned this as a positive. edit there was actually 4 new ponds added, I just remembered! 
2)  The lushness of the conditions of the new course and how "green" everything is - The old course had a few bare spots here and there, and off the fairway was rock hard scrub pan.
3)  The expanded patio area just east of the clubhouse for hosting tournies and other functions.
4)  The new fleet of golf carts
5)   The added bunkering - this was pretty noticeable as the old course had limited bunkering.

Top 1 negative comments:
1)  Once again, nearly everyone mentioned this... Tree Removal.  They couldn't figure out why anyone would remove even 1 tree from the property.

So  Kelly, you be the judge.  How well does this gel with "current" GCA thinking?

[Garland Bayley]

The only caveat I would add to the last two pages of discussion, and not that its anything new to this group.

But when you talk to the average weekend warrior, these are the things they say they love:

1)  Fast golf carts with smooth paths
2)  Green fairways and even greener greens without a blade of grass out of place
3)  Lush ponds and fountains
4)  Nice "extras" in the form of food, cart girl, beverages.


I'm all for winning hearts and minds in trying to expose to people I play with what good golf should be about, but try as I might, I've have limited luck and they still seem to want what they want.

Not just carts, but fast carts. Is this the preteen portion of 98% of all golfers. I don't buy it.

Without a blade of grass out of place- Extreme language. I don't buy it.

Lush pond. What is a lush pond? Is it filled to excess with beer?

Fountains- I have never heard of golfers asking for fountains. They may like the fountains that exist and will comment on it, but I doubt seriously if polled one of the top things a golfer will ask for is a fountain.

Your list is barely credible, but credible enough to get a pass from 98% of the stupid people on this site.

Kelly, you would be right.  It is a bit exaggerated but not much.  Consider the following:

Recently a muni here in Spokane was renovated, specifically Liberty Lake golf course.  http://www.spokanecounty.org/parks/content.aspx?c=1852

I've done some informal polling on what my friends and others I've met on the course think about the changes.  I offered no suggestions nor asked leading questions.....just a simple "what do you think of the new course compared to the old one".  I'll list what the top 5 "positive" comments were in order of most common to least.  As a bonus, i'll list the #1 "negative" comment:  

Top 5 positive comments:
1)  The addition of 3 new ponds to the course - This wasn't even close, everyone mentioned this as a positive.
2)  The lushness of the conditions of the new course and how "green" everything is - The old course had a few bare spots here and there, and off the fairway was rock hard scrub pan.
3)  The expanded patio area just east of the clubhouse for hosting tournies and other functions.
4)  The new fleet of golf carts
5)   The added bunkering - this was pretty noticeable as the old course had limited bunkering.

Top 1 negative comments:
1)  Once again, nearly everyone mentioned this... Tree Removal.  They couldn't figure out why anyone would remove even 1 tree from the property.

So  Kelly, you be the judge.  How well does this gel with "current" GCA thinking?

Kalen,

All it says is that even after the great lengths I went to reform you, you still run with the wrong crowd.

[Greg Tallman]

Sean:

Please don't have me retract the "bright guy" statement I made earlier.

You're pushing it.

I said no ratings process is perfect. Got it now.

What I did say is that major steps could have and should have been done because each new ratings demonstrates the major disconnection they are producing.

GD has a significant brand name and they simply tarnish it with such a collective grouping of certain courses while completely ignoring others. Again, my lowly opinion.

Greg:

Simple thing -- disregard whatever you please. My opinion only matters to me.

I know what I have played (no hubris mind you) and I try to weigh in with cogent comments tied to that. If others feel inadequate or thin-skinned that's not my problem. Maybe they should look in the mirror.

Greg, I respect people who do their homework -- is that so much to ask for? Is it so much to ask that people demonstrate in some concrete form -- that they have taken the time and energy to go out in the field before deciding to extol the virtues of a given course(s). I never slapped someone who didn't strike me first. Amazingly, I never see people (you and others) weigh in against such attacks made in my direction. So be it. Enjoy partner ...

Mat, Don't get me wrong... you and I are not that different in terms of voicing of opinions though I greatly temper my comments as they could reflect poorly on our facility were I to jump into these discussions with the wreckless abandon and passion that some do. I have been told I have far too high a regard for my own opinion many times, that said I have a long liost of people whose opininions I respect more than my own.

Over the last few months I have been fortunate enough t share the course with:
1. a guy who has played every course from every list... EVER.
2. A guy that has seen 3500* courses most of which are/were very highly regarded at some point.
3. Various people from around the world who travel the world extensively seeking out the best the golf world has to offer (Scots, Irish, Japanese, Aussies, English,Canadian,Korean and several Gringos. Ifyour believe that one American's opinion is of equal value to that collective set I would beg to differ.

All opinions matter.. it is for the receiver of information to decide whose matters more... or less.

[JMEvensky]

Kalen,about your buddies' problems with tree removal.

If/when you tell them the usual reasons for taking out the trees,what's their response?I'm just curious if there's a regional difference in reasons given.

At my place,we deal with trash pines so nobody except Joyce Kilmer could reasonably argue against their removal.But,if you ask members whether they'd rather have the trees or good turf,they look at you as though you were speaking in tongues.

[Kalen Braley]

As a followup to my last post, I will add this.

I heard no mention of:

1)  The new undulation found on the course in terms of fairway movement, which I thought was pretty well done.
2)  There was no mention of better course flow and routing (the front 9 had a few significant routing changes, back 9 is pretty similar)
3)   The strategic bunker placement on corners of doglegs, or even the new terrific centerline bunker on #8.
4)   The new greens and the extra movement/shelves added to them
5)   The new double green for holes 12 and 14, which is a pretty darn neat implementation.
6)   The improvements in drainage due to the aforementioned movement on the property.

I also heard no mention of the new containment mounding as a "negative"...although this was limited to 5 or 6 holes, its not course wide.

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen, Ryan:

Ask most people about their food choices and a healthy (should I use that word?) chunk (look at their respective girths) and they would head to Denny's and McDonald's. Rating are not about the lowest common denominator or at minimum they should not be.

Greg:

Appreciate your comments -- but I fully prepared to handle the slings and arrows that come my way.

Greg, I don't there are learned people on the subject of golf courses. I know what I have played -- I'll let others decide what value - lack thereof -- to place on the subject.

[Kalen Braley]

KBM,

You could indeed be very correct here, the course re-opened last spring so the changes were/are still pretty fresh. 

I guess my point is, even I think the changes made to the course were a net positive...just as pretty much everyone I spoke to who felt the same.  The difference came in the form of the "why" it was better as I alluded to in my follow-on post.

It would be an interesting experiment to ask this in 10 years, but then we'll have the reverse problem...not many people will have much re-collection of how it used to be, or are new to the area and never saw the old version.

JM,

I have told people about the improvement in turf conditions and most just shrug thier shoulders and disregard it.  At this course, most of the removed trees were a fair bit off the fairways, so I'm guessing they were thinking there isn't much value when it comes to the turf improvement.  And yes, I have had a few blank stares due to the "speaking in tongues" thing too!   

[JR Potts]

Kalen, Ryan:

Ask most people about their food choices and a healthy (should I use that word?) chunk (look at their respective girths) and they would head to Denny's and McDonald's. Rating are not about the lowest common denominator or at minimum they should not be.

Matt:

We're saying the same thing.   I certainly don't want the average jag-off rating my golf courses.  But, I don't for a second think that this board represents the average jag-off and what they want out of the game of golf.  In fact, given the fact that courses are closing all across the country, I don't think that the golf industry has given the public what they want.....and that's a good thing for quality...but bad for revenue.

The average golfer is much like the average american...void of taste, class and knowledge.

While Kalen's post above that "stupid" me agreed with did exaggerate a bit, it wasn't too far off given what I've seen playing public golf throughout the Midwest in High School and College.  Even 50% or more of memberships in the Chicagoland don't have thoughts that skew much from what Kalen wrote.

If you don't agree....you're not paying attention and/or you're out of touch.

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

Agreed.

The mags should be speaking more aspirationally about their findings in golf course rating articles. I would also like to see more discussion on those courses that are public and less than $100 to play. That would mean much more -- the average Joe only knows about the Seminole through their connection to Florida State !!!

[JR Potts]

And before some of you feel compelled to wrap yourself in the flag and blast me for my critique of Americans, please know I'm as patriotic as they come and I'm not bearish on America, I'm bearish on the human race.

[Kalen Braley]

Top 5 positive comments:
2)  The lushness of the conditions of the new course and how "green" everything is - The old course had a few bare spots here and there, and off the fairway was rock hard scrub pan.
5)   The added bunkering - this was pretty noticeable as the old course had limited bunkering.

Kalen,

In your last post you said they did not recognize the improved drainage or the bunkering, yet you contradict yourself in the first post because they did in fact recognize the better turf which I think can be associated with the better drainage and they in fact did recognize the bunkers.

KBM,

I don't think its a contradiction because the average joe doesn't understand why the turf is better.  99% of them think its better cause they water it more, not because it has adequate drainage, etc.  Outside of this site, I've never met one person who equated better turf quality with anything other than "green because they water it often and use lots of fertilizer"

As for bunkering, I only noted that people have observed there is more of it (quantity), not that its anymore strategic or makes the course funner to play (quality).  And once again, that being mostly due to the fact that there was so little bunkering beforehand as compared to a lot more now.

P.S.  And just for the record, I'm completely with you on this one, and I wish this wasn't the case in terms of what the average joe is looking for in their golfing experience.  But at the end of the day I'm not going to confuse ideals with actual reality.

[John Shimp]

Will the trend to firmer and faster courses (mostly at more traditional golf oriented courses or where forced by budgets) cause the Fazios like Alotian and Mountaintop that are all about conditioning and service to be viewed even more highly by the raters at Golf Digest and some of the other mags?  

[Ronald Montesano]

What I find telling about Alotian is this:  http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2011-05/photos-100-greatest-top-20#slide=14

It's the only hole of the 20 pictured by GD in its slide show that I find restricted and nearly-unplayable...If you get lucky, your ball doesn't slide off the side of the mountain.

[Andy Troeger]

Ron,
I would ascribe that to the photo more than the hole. The fairway is sloped, but not as severely as the hillside to the right of the fairway where the photo is taken. You have about 150 yards of width including all that, but if you hit it way right and it hangs up in the rough the lie won't be very good. I'm pretty sure I hit it there.




I find it interesting that Michael's only real weakness described of the course is that its unwalkable. That's the only criticism anyone seems to be able to find for the course, other than that the amenities are too good! Its a severe site, and a very good golf course. Should it be #14 nationally? Perhaps not, especially if you value walkability--#14 is REALLY high. But, the course is excellent and its a positive to have it on the list.

[Jim Franklin]

Will the trend to firmer and faster courses (mostly at more traditional golf oriented courses or where forced by budgets) cause the Fazio specials like Alotian and Mountaintop that are all about conditioning and service but are pretty vapid from a golf perspective to be viewed even more highly by the raters at Golf Digest and some of the other mags? 

The Alotian was pretty firm when I played it plus it was not all green. I have not been to Mountaintop.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Andy,
I agree to its placing on a top 100 list without any shadow of a doubt.
And as you said, my only true weakness is the walkability, but I still find the overall design rather ho hum in terms of a top 20 placement.
To me top 20 courses are those that carry somewhere in the 9 region of a Doak scale rating..places like Pebble, Pine Valley, Cypress, Merion, oakmont, Sand Hills,Riviera,Oak Hill, Oaklnand hills, Pacific Dunes...etc...and I defy anybody on any panel to put hand on herat and tell me that Alotian deserve sto be mentioned in that lofty status.

I think it is a very good golf course, fun to play, fun to see even, but man...top 20 a big stretch.

[Andy Troeger]

MWP,
No argument there. Pacific Dunes goes higher on my list than Alotian. I do think Alotian is every bit as good or better than Whistling Straits which seems to do just fine in all the various ratings.

Once Gozzer Ranch gets the votes I'll be curious to see where it debuts. I have a feeling it may be the next course that creates this kind of discussion. I certainly would have no issue with top 25/30 for it, but it will be interesting to see if it goes even higher.

Will the trend to firmer and faster courses (mostly at more traditional golf oriented courses or where forced by budgets) cause the Fazio specials like Alotian and Mountaintop that are all about conditioning and service but are pretty vapid from a golf perspective to be viewed even more highly by the raters at Golf Digest and some of the other mags? 

I know you don't care for Mountaintop which I haven't seen, but I assume you've played Alotian to make that comment?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Andy,
Upon your recomendation...just went to the Gozzer Ranch website...wow....looks rather nice, I really like the look of those bumer trimmings, rather non Fazio like......damn it another place on the ever growing list

[Sev K-H Keil]

I've checked a few of the better newsstands and couldn't find the May copy of GD --- I'm starting to get anxious to see how some of my favorites fared this year. If anybody already has it, could you please do me a huge favor and post the ranking. Thank you very much!

[JR Potts]

Guilty as charged; except, my minor presence in the game of golf is merely that of an individually who loves the game of golf, the history of the game, the traditions of the game, the collegiality of the game and the enjoyment I derive from such.  I neither profit from it nor find some greater purpose from it at this time and have no immediate plans to do so in the future.

The average idiot on the course pulling 180s on the fairway in their golf cart while spilling beer out of cup holders detracts from all of the above and while you may embrace it as your living depends on it, mine doesn't.  As such, I continue to find it of poor taste and yes, beneath me.

[Garland Bayley]

...
The average idiot on the course pulling 180s on the fairway in their golf cart while spilling beer out of cup holders...

Since I have never seen this happen, it is impossible for it to be "average".

I would classify the "average" golfer as respectful, polite, engaging, and out to have a good time striping balls. If you want to characterize the few bad apples as the whole crop, then it speaks volumes about your ego.

[JR Potts]

Garland, you don't know a god damn thing about me or my ego.

That's all.