Golf Digest on NYC newsstands with Top 100

[Sean Leary]

Oh, and I will never play at Tedesco again with Brad. I hated wearing an ascot on the course. At Woburn CC I can swing much more freely in my tank top.

[Travis Dewire]

brad,

one of my posts got deleted where i mentioned this. I played four years for Babson, graduated in 08, so we never got to play together, but have played many of the same courses. Im trying to go to Taconic tomorrow, 64* in Williamstown!! I haven't been back since all these cross bunkers and shit were added, like the first hole, bunker in the middle of the fairway at 270. Im interested to see what they did, but my intuition tells me I will not be impressed. The green sites are what make this course challenging, no need to mess around the length and strategy, IMO.

I know I need to go to these courses, and see them for myself. I am 24, I am sure my list will change as i am exposed to more courses. I know I need to get to boston, and o.s before any final decision is made. But I have never been, so if we are following logic, why would I rate them above the courses I have been too and feel deep in my soul are the best?

[Brad Tufts]

Yeah, definately true.  I'm no preacher, but these guys will jump all over you for saying "never in a million years will XX place be better than XX place" without playing it, even if you know it REALLY well.  I got too close to that with Old Mac earlier in this thread, and was bitten for it even though I know better.

Cool about Babson...so you missed us/the guys we knew by one year.  I/we played with Andy Dratch, Steve Eklund, Ravee Davee, Jared Myers, Mike Sexton (your fellow BB member, right?) and those guys.  We always joked about Coach Vass's green pants, made up something like he won the Augusta Drinking and Eating Championship, thus winning the green pants.  I think you guys went down to Pinehurst/Pine Crest the week before us for Spring Break.

Taconic was always a treat, and being less than 2 hours from there at Midd, we were able to go down there for practice rounds a fair amount.  We always played the middle tees at Taconic (at least where it mattered), and when I got to the Mass. Am from the tips, I was slapped around by holes like #11 at 470 and #17 at 225...from tees I had never played before.  I shot crowd-pleasing rounds of 81-79 and trunk slammed.

[Pete Lavallee]

Have you ever felt the difference in your foot, between ground settled for many, many years, as apposed to sod recently laid, or recently grown? That does it for me, really gets me going. I love feeling the earth, the contours formed by years or frost, and underground roots and water passages. When you build a course, this is all destroyed, the course built, and your ball is going around hopin on cement. I.E Black Rock.

Travis,

Are you aware that C&C purposefully DON'T touch the natural microundulations present when they build a new course? This is certainly one reason their minimalist stlyle is so universally accepted; their courses have those 100 year old contours. Could that possibly change how you rate OS. Of course I have little hope of changing your opinion; it's so rationally formed.

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,
  The term accessibility at LCC is different than what you're thinking. They have so much member play, that it can be sometimes  be tough to match up 'non-member" with a 3 some of members, because, well, there are something just not any spots open. I can remember standingon #4 with Mr. Dye and him commenting that he designed LCC for 65-70 rounds a day. They do much more than that. LCC has a VERY active golfing membership, certainly not seasonaly at all.
  #16 is the most boring hole at LCC-I always thought it was a weakness.
  As for Harbour Town-It shouldnt be any secret that they get some "Sahalee treatment" because of the PGA Event.

}

Anthony,

Interesting comment about "desigining a course for 65-70 rounds" - not sure what that means. As for 16... I meant 15 - the par 5 after the 4 around the swamp/sound/marsh. You must be correct about 16 as I cannot place it in my memory... do recall the last few holes being a bit boring and rather bland.

I am very familiar with Long Cove's play and membership... the reigning club champ(several years running???) is a buddy of mine and has  been gracious enough to have us out on several ocassions. His new abode is deep in the woods between 14 and 15.

I think HT gets the same "beatdown" that most great high end public golf courses do... bla bla bla, condition... bla bla bla, costs too much... bla bla bla, only good one week a year... bla bla bla. The bias against high end public/resort facilities amazes me, especially on this site (not aimed at you AN).

[Matt_Ward]

Frankly, I have to wonder how TCC gets the top spot if people use the US Open rota of holes as their basis ?

One can make a solid case either Salem or Myopia would be worthy #1 for those so inclined.

I have to add that Rees Jones effort at Nantucket would likely garner a spot in my Bay State top ten.

Interesting discussion because the state has some really neat classic courses and some fun public ones too -- see Crumpin-Fox as just one example.

Greg:

Tell me where you would place HT among courses you have played ?

If I'm mssing something please let me and others know what you see.

[Matt_Ward]

This is Golfweek's MA state ratings ...

TCC
Myopia Hunt
(Both of the above are in the top 50 overall classic)
Salem
Kittansett
Essex County Club
Eastward Ho!
Taconic
Sankaty Head
Vesper

[Brad Tufts]

Matt...the TCC thing is an issue that GD hasn't addressed.  Most people only get to play 15 of the composite holes.

For those getting to play TCC, the composite layout is rarely, if ever, available.  I would think GW folks have the same issue, just due to lack of availability of the composite.

I've been lucky enough to play it twice, in my practice (due to rain scaring everyone off the course) and tournament rounds in the Mass. Am in 2009.  I suppose 15 holes is enough to make a rating...but one wonders if TCC's position nationally would be different (up or down) if all raters were able to play the composite.  I would call the three added holes "polarizing" for sure.

I think the same issue exists at Granite Links.  They have three nines, and I have heard that they do not pay specific attention to making sure a visiting rater plays the correct nines.  Yes, the rater should know which 9s to play, but at Granite I believe one of the three is always closed for member play, so that affects things.

As for Mass. publics, there are many of them that I would call "decent," but I don't think there are many that would challenge the privates...something we have seen in other Northeastern states.  Red Tail, Pinehills-Nicklaus, and Waverly Oaks would be in the discussion, but only at the back end of the state's top 20 overall.  I have not seen the Ranch out in Southwick, which I have heard is pretty good too.  Crumpin-Fox is another that is "decent."  I'm not a huge fan of C-F personally...something about one nine being open and the other being claustrophobic and odd in spots bugs me.

[Matt_Ward]

Brad, et al:

The big problem I have with composite layouts is that they are not the natural order of things. They are created for special events -- sort of like an all-star grouping of holes. Ridgewood in NJ did it for The Barclays last year but I would presume to use that confirguration as the daily presentation.

No doubt unless someone can tell me and others differently -- TCC is being judged by the US Open routing.

[Sean Leary]

I thought the TCC was now rated on the Clyde and Squirrel 9's rather than the composite. Is that not correct?

[George Freeman]

This is Golfweek's MA state ratings ...

TCC
Myopia Hunt
(Both of the above are in the top 50 overall classic)
Salem
Kittansett
Essex County Club
Eastward Ho!
Taconic
Sankaty Head
Vesper

**Classic only

[Brad Tufts]

I thought the TCC was now rated on the Clyde and Squirrel 9's rather than the composite. Is that not correct?

I stand corrected on that score, as that is what it says.  Not sure if that was true for all 6 years the current ratings are based on.

[Jim Franklin]

TCC is definitely on 2 nines and not composite. Unfortunately I have only played there once and it was the composite. I loved it and the funny thing is even if you play all 3 nines, you still don't play the composite.

[Greg Tallman]

Greg:

Tell me where you would place HT among courses you have played ?

If I'm mssing something please let me and others know what you see.

I have it at the top of golf in the HH area...

Harbour Town - Colleton Dye - May River - Colleton Nicklaus - Oyster Reef - Long Cove - Palmetto Dunes Fazio, Indigo Run - Palmetto Hall Hills, Old South, Palmetto Dunes Hills, Palmetto Hall Cupp - HH National - Port Royal

What is your knock on HT? Great par 3's; Shotmaker's course; Great closing stretch.. that help?

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

I'd throw Nantucket in for my top ten in Massachusetts. I do like Sankaty but Nantucket is the better and more challenging layout for me.

George F:

Given what Golfweek provided -- is there any public coiurse that would merit being listed among the "classic" ones I previously posted? From some of the comments I have received -- no public would sniff a top 20 position in The Bay State. That's the same way in NJ.

Greg:

How bout trimming back a number of the trees -- essentially the course becomes a repetitive bowling alley for tee shot.

How about also making sure the course is in sound shape -- besides -- TOURNAMENT time.

When you say shotmaking -- the holes where working the ball becomes a huge asset is towards the very end of the round. I really like the stretch from #13 to the end -- 10 thru 12 are basically the same type of hole. The par-3 holes are solid -- don't know if I would use the word "great."

[Greg Tallman]

Gents:

I'd throw Nantucket in for my top ten in Massachusetts. I do like Sankaty but Nantucket is the better and more challenging layout for me.

George F:

Given what Golfweek provided -- is there any public coiurse that would merit being listed among the "classic" ones I previously posted? From some of the comments I have received -- no public would sniff a top 20 position in The Bay State. That's the same way in NJ.

Greg:

How bout trimming back a number of the trees -- essentially the course becomes a repetitive bowling alley for tee shot.

How about also making sure the course is in sound shape -- besides -- TOURNAMENT time.

When you say shotmaking -- the holes where working the ball becomes a huge asset is towards the very end of the round. I really like the stretch from #13 to the end -- 10 thru 12 are basically the same type of hole. The par-3 holes are solid -- don't know if I would use the word "great."

Par threes are one of the better sets around... Top 20 for sure (aren't opinions great... yeah great). Tree trimming should be looked into but not sure I would go overboard in a GCA "trees are evil" sense.

You throw out the oft used "only in good condition during Heritage week" - Sure it is in its finest shape during the tournament and as a marketing guy you get that. What was greatly lacking in terms of conditioning last time you were there? 30,000+ rounds on those greens is a tight rope wire for certain, but what exactly lacked in conditioning?

Rank your top 10 in HH if you would.

[Matt_Ward]

Greg:

Hey amigo - stop with the excuse book on turf quality -- lack thereof at Harbour Town.

When people pay big time $$ is it too much to ask for that greens rool like greens. They are
capturing plenty of $$ with the amount of rounds -- how bout pumping a good bit of that back
into the goose that's laying the golden eggs?

I like to see a number of the tee pads checked for being level -- seems the say places on them are
used again and again.

Tree trimming is long overdue. The bowling alley fairways don't accentuate shotmaking -- the inhibit it.

I'll be glad to list my top ten in the HH island area. I'll forward shortly.

[Travis Dewire]

Matt...the TCC thing is an issue that GD hasn't addressed.  Most people only get to play 15 of the composite holes.

For those getting to play TCC, the composite layout is rarely, if ever, available.  I would think GW folks have the same issue, just due to lack of availability of the composite.

I've been lucky enough to play it twice, in my practice (due to rain scaring everyone off the course) and tournament rounds in the Mass. Am in 2009.  I suppose 15 holes is enough to make a rating...but one wonders if TCC's position nationally would be different (up or down) if all raters were able to play the composite.  I would call the three added holes "polarizing" for sure.

I think the same issue exists at Granite Links.  They have three nines, and I have heard that they do not pay specific attention to making sure a visiting rater plays the correct nines.  Yes, the rater should know which 9s to play, but at Granite I believe one of the three is always closed for member play, so that affects things.

As for Mass. publics, there are many of them that I would call "decent," but I don't think there are many that would challenge the privates...something we have seen in other Northeastern states.  Red Tail, Pinehills-Nicklaus, and Waverly Oaks would be in the discussion, but only at the back end of the state's top 20 overall.  I have not seen the Ranch out in Southwick, which I have heard is pretty good too.  Crumpin-Fox is another that is "decent."  I'm not a huge fan of C-F personally...something about one nine being open and the other being claustrophobic and odd in spots bugs me.

Brad, Taconic is public, and was just recently ranked number 1 course in MA you can play, and number 41 in the country, of courses you can play. It is also the number one college course in the country. And it is public. AND I AM GOING RIGHT NOW !!!!!!!!!!! $15 Coach Poole Special!!!!!!!!!

[Travis Dewire]

Have you ever felt the difference in your foot, between ground settled for many, many years, as apposed to sod recently laid, or recently grown? That does it for me, really gets me going. I love feeling the earth, the contours formed by years or frost, and underground roots and water passages. When you build a course, this is all destroyed, the course built, and your ball is going around hopin on cement. I.E Black Rock.

Travis,

Are you aware that C&C purposefully DON'T touch the natural microundulations present when they build a new course? This is certainly one reason their minimalist stlyle is so universally accepted; their courses have those 100 year old contours. Could that possibly change how you rate OS. Of course I have little hope of changing your opinion; it's so rationally formed.

Pete, less reliance on CC's "ideals" and more on the finished product - Who decided CC were superior designers over Ross and Raynor??

Why is O/S a better course than Essex, Salem, Myopia, Charles River, etc. Give me YOUR reasons

[Travis Dewire]

Brad,

Cool, I have met Jared, Rave Dave was a senior my freshman year but not on the team but played with a peer teammate at Lawrence Academy. Yeah I know Sexton, my mother is a professor at Babson, and then being at my club too, so I have known him for many years - we butt heads lol but he is a good pal at the end of the day !! Tied Scoring Record at Williams I think 67, or 68 one year. But Vass, where would the world be without Mike Vassalotti. What a hoot that guy is! Im going to call him today I think, I'll be sure to ask if he still has those pants, cause he did up untill a few years ago - and still had his green jacket he would wear out to dinner at the Pinecrest every night lolol - but I do have to correct you one bit, it would only be an eating competition !!! Guy hasn't drank in 20+ years!! Hats off to that...

Have you ever been to Old North State?? Its like 30 minutes plus outside of pinehurst. On our way back playing at night, We took a pit stop at an ice cream stand on the side of the road, because the stand is usually never open, and he hadn't had their ice cream in 15 years. He claimed it was the best, he loved his ice cream.

[Tim Martin]

Matt...the TCC thing is an issue that GD hasn't addressed.  Most people only get to play 15 of the composite holes.

For those getting to play TCC, the composite layout is rarely, if ever, available.  I would think GW folks have the same issue, just due to lack of availability of the composite.

I've been lucky enough to play it twice, in my practice (due to rain scaring everyone off the course) and tournament rounds in the Mass. Am in 2009.  I suppose 15 holes is enough to make a rating...but one wonders if TCC's position nationally would be different (up or down) if all raters were able to play the composite.  I would call the three added holes "polarizing" for sure.

I think the same issue exists at Granite Links.  They have three nines, and I have heard that they do not pay specific attention to making sure a visiting rater plays the correct nines.  Yes, the rater should know which 9s to play, but at Granite I believe one of the three is always closed for member play, so that affects things.

As for Mass. publics, there are many of them that I would call "decent," but I don't think there are many that would challenge the privates...something we have seen in other Northeastern states.  Red Tail, Pinehills-Nicklaus, and Waverly Oaks would be in the discussion, but only at the back end of the state's top 20 overall.  I have not seen the Ranch out in Southwick, which I have heard is pretty good too.  Crumpin-Fox is another that is "decent."  I'm not a huge fan of C-F personally...something about one nine being open and the other being claustrophobic and odd in spots bugs me.

Brad, Taconic is public, and was just recently ranked number 1 course in MA you can play, and number 41 in the country, of courses you can play. It is also the number one college course in the country. And it is public. AND I AM GOING RIGHT NOW !!!!!!!!!!! $15 Coach Poole Special!!!!!!!!!

Travis- To say that Taconic is the number one college course in the country is quite a stretch. I don`t think there would be much argument on this board that Yale is # 1 by a considerable margin. Don`t get me wrong about Taconic because it is very worthy and I wish i was going with you.

[Travis Dewire]

Tim, you played both of them???

[Tim Martin]

Tim, you played both of them???

Travis-Played them both and have no reservation in saying that although Taconic is fantastic.

[Travis Dewire]

There we go then. You like yale, I like Taconic

Taconic is the best college course in the country. I have every right to say that - that is what is true to me. Not Tim Martin's opinion on which is better which is only true to you

[Sean Leary]

We have witnessed the second coming of Jordan Wall...