Greg Norman courses

[Anthony Gray]

  Anything consistent in their designs?

  Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

They are all harder than heck.

[Sam Morrow]

I have played 2 and liked them both. Meadowbrook Farms outside Houston was very good until they built houses on the collars and cut a huge ditch through the middle. It's a tough course but I think very fair for any skill player. He also did the Creeks at Beechwood, this is next to Texas Motorspeedway and was very hard. It was softened and renamed Doral Tesoro and is a resort.

[John_Conley]

  Anything consistent in their designs?

  Anthony

Tempted....I'll resist.

[Matthew Mollica]

Of his Australian works, I've played -

The National (Moonah)
The Glades
Brookwater
The Grand
The Vintage
Settler's Run
Sanctuary Lakes
Pelican Waters

Some of these are difficult, but some are not.

The consistent thing I hear about Greg Norman Golf Course Design co. is that the outcome was very good if Bob Harrison and Harley Kruse were involved.

I know the GNGCD portfolio of US courses boasts very few where Harrison and / or Kruse worked, and that the ones they did work on are among the better viewed courses.

MM

[David Kelly]

I guess the best Norman course I have played is The National Moonah course which is also probably the weakest course I have played in Australia. But still a good course.

Vellano, PGA West Norman and the Great White course at Doral are some of my least favorite courses in the world though.

[Matt_Ward]

Mixed bag in the USA from the ones I have played.

Not too keen about his work at PGA West or The Great White at Doral. Thought his effort at Lansdowne in VA was OK given the lack of quality land. Wente Vineyards is a tough call -- has some holes of note -- I preferred the return nine as the better of the two.

On the flip side I reallly liked what he did in CO with Red Sky Ranch -- first rate scenery and shotmaking combined with quality hole variety. Also, a favorable nod to his work at Cornerstone near Montrose. I also like what he did with the TPC Sugarloaf -- the finishing hole alone is pure golf theater.

I liked Doonbeg -- some have not really been fair to Greg on that one -- there are plenty of fun holes -- the short par-3 on the return side is grand stuff. Maybe someone who has played it recently can weigh in with their thoughts. I would certainly recommend playing it if the opportnity presents itself.

The idea that all of them are super hard is not true -- plenty of optioons abound from the better ones I have played. You have to know your game and avoid taking on more than you can handle. Nothing wrong with that -- likely the fault of the respective player in not knowing their limitations.

[Andy Shulman]

I've played his course at Lansdowne and, while there are definitely some nice holes, way too many of them have trouble on all sides to make it enjoyable for those - like myself - who aren't single-digit handicappers.  I also played Doonbeg shortly after it opened and, despite no yardage book and caddies who didn't know the course at all, it seemed more playable.  It's also got some very memorable holes, including #1 and the short par-3 (#14?) along the ocean on the back.

[Mac Plumart]

I've played a couple Norman's and they've been ball busters with a lot of bunkers.  Frankly, I really enjoy them despite their lack of great routing.  Taken as a collection of golf holes, they've been good.  Taken as a cohesive course...eh....not so much.

[Matt_Ward]

Mac:

You need to fill in the blanks about the specific Norman courses you have played -- I don't doubt that GN has a few "ball busters" but without the specific names of the courses I don't see much to be gained from applying a broad generalization.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I have played The Point GC in Lake Norman/Mooresville, NC.  I am not expecting this to be one of his greatest courses, but how representative of his overall style is this?

Does he have a style that pervades 'his' courses? 

Thank you.

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

You ask a question that would be hard to answer for me. I have not played The Point but I have played the ones I previously listed -- it would be, unfair in my mind, to apply a COMMON tag to all Norman courses and think they all apply uniformly. There are some quite exceptional ones I have played and are well worth visiting if the time and opportunity arises.

Norman is not the Gary Player or even Arnold Palmer of design.

[Aidan Bradley]

Whilst I didn't get to play Lansdowne, I certainly enjoyed shooting the course.....

[Matt_Ward]

Aidan:

Great pics but ask yourself how much "playability" is present with the side areas -- plenty of containment to keep balls -- but should one wander just a bit too far to the side the net result is often a reload. Norman has done better elsewhere.

[Mac Plumart]

Mac:

You need to fill in the blanks about the specific Norman courses you have played -- I don't doubt that GN has a few "ball busters" but without the specific names of the courses I don't see much to be gained from applying a broad generalization.

Of the couple of Greg Norman designs I've played (The River Club and TPC Sugarloaf), they are difficult test of golf, mainly ball striking, with a lot of bunkers.  And the routing is disjointed.  Frankly, the pictures Aidan posted look very much like The River Club, particularly in the carries and the bunkering. 

[Aidan Bradley]

Matt,

Call me old fashioned but if you "wander just a bit too far to the side" there should be consequences.

Aidan.

[Matt_Ward]

Aidan:

I never said there should not be "consequences" -- but I don't think a steady diet of the electric chair should one miss by a few feet works well. As a resort course -- the playability component needs to be emphasized -- I wonder if Greg said dam the torpedoes -- full speed ahead with what I want.

[jeffwarne]

I guess the best Norman course I have played is The National Moonah course which is also probably the weakest course I have played in Australia. But still a good course.

Vellano, PGA West Norman and the Great White course at Doral are some of my least favorite courses in the world though.

The old White course at Doral, while not architecturally overwhelmingly compelling, provided a gentle, scenic test for the resort golfer, with huge Ficus trees throughout the course shielding the nearby ghetto apartment complexes.
I remember my first year at Doral inquiring about a rental there.
As I was filling out the application, two different people came in to report their car stolen...........

Those ficus trees were leveled and replaced by Palms which look like something out of Dubai, exposing the full glory of the blight that surrounds the White.
and the new White course was awful to boot, taking out the adjacent par 3 course as well-which was fun place to practice and take students.

[Andy Troeger]

l've played two Norman designs in Colorado: Red Sky and Cornerstone. Both are good and very scenic, although tough walks at best mainly due to the terrain. Red Sky plays on the side of a hill/mountain and had some limitations because of that with a lot of parallel sidehill holes. The course doesn't feel cramped, however, and most of the holes are very good. My biggest criticism is that the design gets bunker happy on a few holes: 4, 7, 12, 13, and 15. Some of these holes have 10 or more bunkers, which seemed to clutter things instead of really providing strategic choices. Its quite a bit better than the Fazio next door IMO, although both are amazing to look at.I

Cornerstone is quite a bit different and FAR more expansive. The property is not as severe and the course uses a couple skyline greens and uses angled greens pretty well to create some interesting approach shots. The course is difficult, but playable. I'd personally go back to either one, but probably Cornerstone first (although its VERY tough to get to from most places). I think it would be rated higher if more people had seen it.

[Andy Stamm]

Does anyone know where the credit lies between Norman and Dye for the Medalist? From what I've seen/heard that place is brutally hard. There are some nice design elements though like good, tight run up and chipping areas and no rough with sandy waste areas instead.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy T:

Well said -- Red Sky Ranch does have a few too many bunkers on certain holes -- but when one adds up the totality of what is there -- I would dare say it's one of the state's best -- a thrill ride indeed -- especially the closing holes on each side.

Cornerstone suffers from a lack of exposure as you mentioned. Just great scenery that often hides the quality of the work there. I questioned why Norman would do a course so close to his work in Wolcott -- but he and his team should be saluted. Very expansive landing areas and quite playable if the proper tees are played.

[Matthew Mollica]

On many of Norman's courses - when standing on the tee, a direct line to the dominant greenside bunker often makes a great driving line.

MM

[Randy Thompson]

Does anyone know where the credit lies between Norman and Dye for the Medalist? From what I've seen/heard that place is brutally hard. There are some nice design elements though like good, tight run up and chipping areas and no rough with sandy waste areas instead.

I walked the course just after construction was nearing completion including a couple of holes wirh Pete. Dye pretty much had control during the early initial phase and pretty did what he wanted. Jason McCoy was in charge for Dye and had built several for Pete and had done Kiawah in South Carolina previous to Medalist. Jason at that time accepted with Pete´s ok, working with Greg running his Americas design operation. They made a hell of a lot of changes over the next year to two years but I am not sure of the specifics and if it got harder or easier or fairer.

[Kevin Pallier]

Anything consistent in their designs?

I am yet to see a "great" short P4 among them ?

Like Matthew - I've seen all of the Australian designs with the exception of Ellerston

[Jason Topp]

Doonbeg and PGA West.

Doonbeg struck me as a missed opportunity but I could be convinced otherwise.

PGA West was pretty weak although I liked the bunker style.  I can't remember much about the course other than the ball seemed to funnel back to the fairway on most holes.