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Matt_Ward

Re: Greg Norman courses
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2011, 10:53:46 PM »
People ask about a great short par-4 -- fair enough.

But Norman has one of the great short par-3's I've ever played -- with the 14th at Doonbeg. Get some wind blowing and the 114-yd hole will make most suffer more than they can possibly imagine -- especially with the rear pin in usage.

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greg Norman courses
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2011, 11:38:17 PM »
Kevin & Matt, he's got several good short 4's on his resume.

Sanctuary Lakes 15
Pelican Waters 2 & 12
The National (Moonah) 9
Settlers Run 4, 13 & 17

Not Doak or C&C standard, but how many are?

MM
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 08:06:08 AM by Matthew Mollica »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greg Norman courses
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2011, 07:10:57 AM »
Kevin & Matt, he's got several good short 4's on his resume.

Sanctuary Lakes 15
Pelican Waters 2
The National (Moonah) 9
Settlers Run 4, 13 & 17

Not Doak or C&C standard, but how many are?

MM

Gosh, this is a first.

I played pelican Waters 6 months ago or so, and I have no recollection of #2.  I can't say it was 'memorable'.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greg Norman courses
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2011, 08:07:24 AM »
James, the 2nd is a water carry. The 12th is also a good short 4.

Darius Oliver describe both holes -

Quote
Despite being well endowed with a number of challenging long holes, Pelican Waters’ greatest strength is its short par fours. The 2nd is a superb example of strategic design with water running across the tee and up the right side of the hole tempting the bold player to take a risk. The longer the club the more water to carry to reach the fairway and if successful the easier the pitch into an angled green, with its series of left side bunkers impeding only those who chose to lay-up.

The other standout is the deceptive 12th, which Harrison rates as one of the best short fours the team has ever built. Here there is ample width off the tee yet parts of the sharply contoured green are hidden beyond a knoll if approached from the wrong side of the fairway. The back pins are especially difficult to get near unless the drive can hug the left-side fairway traps. Like the 2nd the brave drive here is rewarded with an ideal angle of approach and a genuine chance at birdie. Visually this hole is particularly pleasing considering the land was initially quite flat.

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Billsteele

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greg Norman courses
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2011, 12:19:32 PM »
I have played two Norman courses: The Golf Club at the Ritz Carlton in Orlando and Elks Run outside of Cincinnati.

The Ritz Carlton course is non-distinct and falls into that nebulous category of "typical Florida resort course." A good deal of water, relatively flat, expensive in season and virtually forgettable once you leave the premises.

Elks Run is interesting and well worth a play in my opinion. The two nines are quite different: the front nine has decent width and has the more interesting holes. The short par four seventh (with a creek bisecting the hole in front of and to the right of the green) is well done. The drop-shot par three eight is very well done and has a great sphincter tightening factor due to the elevation change and the penalty for missing the green (a pot bunker in front, a  severe drop off to the right and a run-off to the back). The back nine is tighter (many more trees as the front nine is done in a more faux links style) and more penal. It makes use of a creek that meanders through that portion of the property and several greensites are located just on the other side of the water. The back nine is a bit contrived and a bit too difficult for my tastes but the front is fun and fairly solid. In recent years, the golf course has gone through some rough financial sledding. The original owner, who viewed it as a true country club for a day (pay one green fee and play all day), went bankrupt. The owners who have it currently have struggled with conditioning (a brutal summer in Southern Ohio last year was particularly hard on the course). The other issue is that relatively close by is Stonelick Hills (designed by the owner and pretty well done for an amateur) which is well conditioned and, from what I see, preferred by players who are choosing between the two.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greg Norman courses
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2011, 02:32:31 PM »
Aidan:

I never said there should not be "consequences" -- but I don't think a steady diet of the electric chair should one miss by a few feet works well. As a resort course -- the playability component needs to be emphasized -- I wonder if Greg said dam the torpedoes -- full speed ahead with what I want.

Matt

I'd side with Aidan on this. Maybe because of what I'm used to playing but apart from the carries which look to be from the tees, those holes look plenty wide enough from outer edge of rough to outer edge of rough. And as you say they do have containment mounding and trees to stop the odd really wild one.

Niall

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greg Norman courses
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2011, 04:51:15 PM »
Norman built a new course a little north of Toronto called Wyndance, which is among my favorite modern courses in the city. It's built around an old quarry. The only really weak hole on the course is the short par 4 11th. Way too much risk, no reward and as a result it ends up being a boring iron-wedge hole.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greg Norman courses
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2011, 10:08:06 PM »
I've played four Norman courses -- Lansdowne (several times), both courses at Championsgate (once each), and Mayakoba (once).  I thought Mayakoba was a pretty good resort course that had one flaw -- the wedging of two par 3's into the only oceanside spot on the course.  Both Championsgate courses were perfectly acceptable resort courses.

As for Lansdowne, IMHO, it's a course with 14 or so good holes and several terrible holes.  The third hole is an absolute disaster -- hazards on both sides of a fairway that narrows in the landing zone with a cart path and mounds on the right side of the fairway that shoot holes into the hazard.  That problem -- mounds and cart paths lining hazards -- repeats itself a few times.  
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 10:47:11 AM by Carl Nichols »

Matt_Ward

Re: Greg Norman courses
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2011, 10:27:39 PM »
Niall:

Help me out partner - but are your comments based on a personal experience in having play the course ?

If so -- I can understand your taking sides because without a personal experience when weighed against mine you are
talking out of your butt -- with all due respect.

Niall -- the effective width of Lansdowne is quite demanding in plenty of spots -- cork anyone too far to either side and playability can be severely impacted.

Norman's done some excellent work that I have personally played -- Lansdowne has its moments but it's a mixed bag at best.

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greg Norman courses New
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2011, 11:56:48 PM »
Matt,

I think it's interesting that you find the trouble on the sides of Landsdowne to be a detractor, yet you constantly applaud Red Sky Norman.  I have not played Landsdowne.  But I have played RSN.  Being a long hitter, combined with altitude and the over-abundance of elevated tees, the course becomes quite narrow.  I found that if you missed a fairway and one of the 2.5 million fairway bunkers, the ball was not to be found.  So why is one OK and the other is not?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 08:50:27 PM by Greg Chambers »
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greg Norman courses
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2011, 06:03:58 AM »
Norman recently listed his 10 best in a magazine article featured here in Australia.
The article was a paid advertorial type thing, which promoted the Johnny Walker Blue Label Greg Norman Luggage Collection  :P

Nonetheless, Norman rated his ten best courses, among the 74 opened, and 35 under construction -

(In order)

Doonbeg
Ellerston
The National (Moonah)
Cornerstone
Red Sky Golf Club
TPC San Antonio
TPC Sugarloaf
Brookwater
El Camaleon at the Mayakoba Resort
Mission Hills - Norman

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Rich Brittingham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greg Norman courses
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2011, 10:24:13 AM »
While the course at PGA West certinly isn't the greatest course in the world, I think you need to look at it as a part of the whole of the 6 courses that make up the PGA West development.  Maybe I'm giving Norman too much credit but the course is a welcome respite after spending a few rounds at the Stadium Course or the Nicklaus Private and Nicklaus Tournament course, all very demanding in their own right.  Coupled with the Palmer Private course (home to the Bob hope final round), the Norman course is in many ways the perfect compliment in that is entirely unique to the resort, both in playability, and aesthetic design.

Lansdowne will wear you out, no room to miss off the tee or on approach shot, for 18 holes.   Its a fun test a few times per season, but I'm not begging for a membership.

J Sadowsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greg Norman courses
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2011, 10:26:41 AM »
Matt,

I think it's interesting that you find the trouble on the sides of Landsdowne to be a detractor, yet you constantly applaud Red Sky Norman.  I have not played Landsdowne.  But I have played RSN.  Being a long hitter, combined with altidude and the over-abundance of elevated tees, the course becomes quite narrow.  I found that if you missed a fairway and one of the 2.5 million fairway bunkers, the ball was not to be found.  So why is one OK and the other is not?

I recently did a short review of Danang Golf Club, a Norman course in central Vietnam.  Although I think the course was overall nice, the narrowness of the fairways (combined with the brutality of missing to either the left or the right) was a chief complaint.

Matt_Ward

Re: Greg Norman courses
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2011, 11:10:35 AM »
Matthew:

Thanks for posting the list -- albeit with the noted info you included.

Be curious to hear from those who have played Doonbeg recently and what changes were made from the time I played it about 5 years ago.

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