[Greg Tallman]

I understand they are redesigning the St George's executive course in Bermuda. Faldo and Smyers will make a 6,000+´yard "regulation" course from the original 4043 yard course with another spit of land thrown in.

Why??

Why not take the forward thinking approach and put what could be perhaps as good a nine holer as there is on the planet? The land has everything from rolling terrain to beachfront, truly exceptional piece of property though only about 80 acres.

I would LOVE to design a nine hole course that is probably the way to go anyway given the direction of the game and how people are budgeting  their time these days.

They already have a wonderful little 100 yarded that is reminiscent of Pebble #7...

Opportunity lost and market misunderstood. Too bad.

[Bill_McBride]

I understand they are redesigning the St George's executive course in Bermuda. Faldo and Smyers will make a 6,000+´yard "regulation" course from the original 4043 yard course with another spit of land thrown in.

Why??

Why not take the forward thinking approach and put what could be perhaps as good a nine holer as there is on the planet? The land has everything from rolling terrain to beachfront, truly exceptional piece of property though only about 80 acres.

I would LOVE to design a nine hole course that is probably the way to go anyway given the direction of the game and how people are budgeting  their time these days.

They already have a wonderful little 100 yarded that is reminiscent of Pebble #7...

Opportunity lost and market misunderstood. Too bad.

Agreed. I would just fix up the original, but wonder what's happened to the big hotel above that triangular lower terrace?

The best thing about staying in the cottages at St George's Club in 1993 was going out with the ladies, a six pack and a 7-iron for a few holes at dusk.  Access to Mid-Ocean was another bennie!

[Tom_Doak]

Greg:

Perhaps nine-hole design jobs don't pay as well as 6,000 yard 18-hole regulation courses, so no one wanted to bring it up.  Or maybe Nick Faldo thinks nine holes is never enough.

[Brad Tufts]

Has there been any new announcement about this?

Latest info found online is from 2008...I was under the impression it had stalled.

[Matthew Sander]

Greg,

I agree with your premise that the game could benefit from more nine hole courses and experiences that generally take much less time than the current model. The problem is, does the client consider a nine hole course or an executive course a marketable amenity.

There seems to be an overriding opinion among golf consumers that anything less than an 18 hole championship course is a half measure; merely a way to pass some time. Personally I enjoy nine hole rounds and they actually fit better in my life right now (2 young kids with another on the way), but too many people would rather do something else if they aren't playing a perceived true round of golf. Here's the rub - when the same people consider their potential 5 hour round they may elect to not play at all, 9 holes (not a "real" round) or 18 holes (too long).

There have been many threads on this board promoting a more accessible and less time consuming version of the game, so I think we know where our majority stands. However, we'll see if this mindset can move to the golf masses. If they demand/embrace it, developers and architects will build it...if not, well...

[Derek_Duncan]

I'm of the opinion we need more 6,000-yard courses, provided they have personality and strategic holes. I'm eager to see what they come up with.

[Mark Saltzman]

Derek,

You're probably right that we need more 6000 yard courses; but, I would argue that we need more 6000 yard courses that fit well with the topography, rather than forcing a 'championship' 7000 yard course on the land.  Here, it seems (I am not familiar with the property), the archie is forcing a 6000 yard course on land that dictates only a 9-hole or executive layout.

Mark

[J Sadowsky]

Greg:

Perhaps nine-hole design jobs don't pay as well as 6,000 yard 18-hole regulation courses, so no one wanted to bring it up.  Or maybe Nick Faldo thinks nine holes is never enough.

Wouldn't it be more likely that the client (the government?) thinks that it could get more green fees from tourists with a promise of 18 holes than with 9?

[hick]

I have spent about a week on Bermuda over New years the last five years , and can say that this year was very slow. I hear occupancy in Bermuda is down 50% even in the high season. They need to lower greens fees and add more package deals. St George's is really out of the way for most tourists as well. Not sure nine or eighteen holes is the real problem. My trip is booked already for next year as i like when its slow. How many of you go to Bermuda.

[Bill_McBride]

I have spent about a week on Bermuda over New years the last five years , and can say that this year was very slow. I hear occupancy in Bermuda is down 50% even in the high season. They need to lower greens fees and add more package deals. St George's is really out of the way for most tourists as well. Not sure nine or eighteen holes is the real problem. My trip is booked already for next year as i like when its slow. How many of you go to Bermuda.

Mat, I went there just once, 1993, with my wife and another couple.  Because of the exorbitant prices art the big name cottage colonies, we stayed in a very nice 2 BR cottage at the St George's Club.  We really enjoyed being a bit out of the way there.  Went to Hamilton once on the bus and found it very busy.  By contrast, lazy little St George was just right.  A couple of decent restaurants and a night club where the staff we were singing reggae with at midnight served us breakfast the next morning looking very hungover!

It wasn't a long taxi ride to either Mid-Ocean or Port Royal, and the little St George course's 7th hole was outside our back patio.

I would go back to Bermuda in a heartbeat.  The golf was nothing special except for Mid-Ocean, which is very special.

[Greg Tallman]

Tom,
Obvious the archie would want to do 18 but that is why I said the DEVELOPER missed the boat on this one. I just think the land could yield a very special nine holer versus a cramped and probably dangerous 18 holer (already some tight spots on the curent 4043 yard course)

Brad,
The golf project is fueled by the development of the Park Hyatt project on the old Club Med site above St Catherine's beach. Additionally it would appear that they have acquired the land that was to the right of 11 and 12 for the housing part of the PH deal and the government has procured another small piece too help "stretch" the course. 

Justin,
Coventional "wisdom" says the answer to your question is yes but it is that very concentionality that I am questioning.

Matt,
How can something be out of the way in a place as small as Bermuda? King's Wharf might be the only place that could be called out of the way. So you think lower green fees would attract enough incremental business to make it a sound business decision? I highly doubt it. In a fly only market dropping your green fee 20% will not result in more revenue from increased rounds. If not for the cruise industry Bermuda would be in serious trouble... but that is a very sharp double edged sword as more and more people are opting to go the cruise route rather than fly to Bermuda. For the price of the airfare alone you get you hotel, all food, entertainment and round trip transport to and from Bermuda... not for everyone but it has both helped and hurt Bermuda.

Bill,
Sounds like you visited "Freddy's" in St Georges

Matthew,
I think you would be surprised at how a nine holer would be received especially in a destination such as Bermuda. If the course were as good as I say (world class 9 holer) wouldn't the serious golfer make it a point to play it if in Bermuda? Of course and would the casual tourist on whom they rely to ring the register not be inclined ot hit the klower price point while getting a world class experience and getting back to the spouse and children sooner? Gotta believe that is the way to go. When we had the Swin Flu scare down here  a couple of years ago we sht down 27 of our 36 holes and offered a 9 hole, 18 hole and all day rate. The casusal tourist jumped all over the 9-hole rate. OK so it WAS the back nine of The Ocean Course but that only reinforces my point as the St. George's site could yield something pretty special. Heck maybe go the oft discussed 12 hole route... whatever the land would yield... whcih is not 18 holes.

At any rate as long as I can still drop the sticks after the short par 3 and head to Blackbeard's for a cold one in the middle of the round it's all good. 

[hick]

Greg,

It is true that the cruise ships both help and hurt the island. I spoke with some people on the tourism committee while we were there last year, and they are finding that in this economy, the cruise ships are hurting the hotels and main island restaurants. Only the businesses in the general docking area reap the real benefits.

As you may already know, the cruise ships are not going to St George's anymore because they are too big.  So they now go into the dockyards. It's an hour long bus ride from to St. George's from there. Since you are not allowed to bring your clubs on the buses, one must hire a taxi which costs about $80+ round trip in addition to your greens fees (from the dockyards). 

Perhaps a 9 hole option would be a good way to get the average tourist over there, but lower greens fees (especially in the off season) would definitely be a draw. In fact, one member of the tourism council we spoke to was putting together a proposal to take to the Premier that asked the government to supplement the green fees costs so that the rate to the tourists would be lower. 

They are trying to find ways to attract "average" golfers/tourists to visit the island and stay there.  They have golf/room packages and various other promotions as well, but I think that if they dropped the greens fees a bit in general, it would help the non-cruise ship hotel/restaurant business.

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

It is true that the cruise ships both help and hurt the island. I spoke with some people on the tourism committee while we were there last year, and they are finding that in this economy, the cruise ships are hurting the hotels and main island restaurants. Only the businesses in the general docking area reap the real benefits.

As you may already know, the cruise ships are not going to St George's anymore because they are too big.  So they now go into the dockyards. It's an hour long bus ride from to St. George's from there. Since you are not allowed to bring your clubs on the buses, one must hire a taxi which costs about $80+ round trip in addition to your greens fees (from the dockyards). 

Perhaps a 9 hole option would be a good way to get the average tourist over there, but lower greens fees (especially in the off season) would definitely be a draw. In fact, one member of the tourism council we spoke to was putting together a proposal to take to the Premier that asked the government to supplement the green fees costs so that the rate to the tourists would be lower. 

They are trying to find ways to attract "average" golfers/tourists to visit the island and stay there.  They have golf/room packages and various other promotions as well, but I think that if they dropped the greens fees a bit in general, it would help the non-cruise ship hotel/restaurant business.

The government approach may be a good one in that they stand to benefit in any number of ways by providing discounted golf... increased tourism, hotel taxes... etc. Would it be enough to make a difference? I do not see the numbers but I honestly doubt golf is the main factor for any more than 10% of the tourists visiting the islands. Not sure what the rates are now but in 2000 $105 for Port Royal was not a bad rate fro the course, articularly if your main target audience is the northeast market. I would argue that the caliber of golf is the problem as Port Roayl represents the only "real golf" on the island accesible for the average tourist. They may want to work fery closely with Mid Ocean and Tucker's Point to free up a few more times and promote it. I doubt it would have a negative effect on the real estate or lodging components(Tucker's) and Mid Ocean has typically had more than enough availability.

All the more reason in my mind to build a world class nine hole course... being able to promote something that IS world class versus another "short Bermuda course".

Mid you I have had agreat fun at each of teh courses... just imaging the perception. The golf is not of enough quality to attract the guy/family that is going on a golf vacation.

Just one guy's take.

[Ben Stephens]

I can remember reading a report from a Bermudian paper while looking for Faldo course in Bermuda - I can remember the Government allowing more coastal land near Fort St Catherine which would provide more Ocean holes and Faldo iterating that it would be 6,000 yards with a few adaptions for a future PGA Grand Slam of Golf - probably with tees like when it was at Mid Ocean whose 2nd tee was used as the 18th tee so its a more thrilling drive for the pros.

I have ridden a moped through this site and it is quite steep and tricky to extend holes - there would have to be a lot of earthworks to make it possible.

Cheers
Ben

[PCCraig]

I've played St. George's a couple times and can't remember anything about the course other than the cool short par 3 along the water. If Faldo & Smyers are given new land to work with, I don't see any reason why not use the most of it and try to fit in 18 holes.

Also, I thought Smyers and Faldo "broke up" thier design relationship years ago?

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