NY and Pennsy Public golf ...

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt,
I grew up and spent my first 22 years in Buffalo, NY.  That's about as far from New York City as you can get, so I have a little bit of experience here.

I think the gap you have correctly observed is due to a relatively simple cause - the public courses in NY are typically post-WWII municipal courses, but with municipal budgets, targeted to a typical municipal golfer (such as me!)

Take Tonawanda, NY.  A blue-collar town that had fantastic industry...  GM, Dunlop, etc...  But it was a town with two really decent municipal courses that I could play all day, all year for $60 per year.  AMAZING.  (A season pass today costs only $420)

These weren't CCFAD courses.  These were places to learn golf, to laugh, to beat your friends.  They were like Augusta to me, although they did use blue-painted bowling pins as tee markers.

With courses like that all over, why would anybody have built a CCFAD course?

Heck - I remember driving by CC of Buffalo wondering what was behind those gates.  But heck, I had the William Harries trifecta - Sheridan (USGA publinx, 1962), Brighton, and Beaver Island (NY State Park course).

Keep in mind, Matt, that the economy up there is horrible.  Really horrible.  Trust me, building a high-end public course is in no sane person's plans right now.

Don't get me wrong.  I love Buffalo.  It's a city of really great people with passion for life and sports.  It's a city that has a collective self-esteem problem (especially since Toronto (a world-class city) is so close.  But it's Buffalo, and I love the place, and I'd be happy to play Sheridan every day if I could do it in under 4.5 hours.  Too bad there aren't any jobs up there

[Ronald Montesano]

Matt:  Read what I wrote..."Drop the Long Island and Westy-Chesty privates in any other of the 49 states and you'll find an even more enlarged gap." I don't want you to drop them; I want you to drop them in another state.  Would you like to rephrase?

Dan:  You need to get home. We have 6 CCFAD courses now that will blow your mind--Harvest Hill, Diamond Hawk, Arrowhead, Seneca Hickory Stick, Links at Ivy Ridge, refurbished Glen Oak -- along with a bunch more new courses (Ironwood, Deerwood's new nine, Willowbrook) that make golf much more pleasurable than it was in the 1970s.  Sadly, Sheridan Park has not been returned to its original state, as that damned chemical company continues to occupy the land south of Sheridan Drive.  Go, bowling pins!!

[David Lott]

It's sociological. Pennsylvania is, according to James Carville, "Pittsburgh and Philadelphia with Alabama in between." Snarky, but it contains a large kernel of truth. Most Pennsylvanians would not give a rip whether the course was "great," and would not pay the high prices for such courses. Pennsylvania is football, wrestling, beer, Steelers and (horrors) Eagles. Down to earth people, no affectations. Who the hell needs to compete with Oakmont or Merion? Those places are in another universe, home of weird blood sucking cold blooded creatures.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt:

Have you played Toftrees in State College, PA? Just curious if this entered into your opinion.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

If I may interject a mild peep here? Excuse me for going semi OT but Matt's post directed my attention to NYC public golf.

It is 1895 and Van Cortlandt Park golf Course is opening in the Bronx, NY. Surely as fine as any private course available to play at that time. In a period when golf was truly incipient in the US, at this point in time public and private golf stand astride one another as equals.

You will argue that the grounds were rudimentary. Yes, but all golf in the US was equally crude in those years.

It was pretty much downhill for public golf in New York from that time forward as far as comparable quality between private and public  diverged in extemis as Matt has pointed out.

Was public golf in 1895 a result of an outcry from the masses? No! in fact it was the upper class that pressed the city of New York to build the Van Cordtland golf course. Moses Taylor Pyne and Cleveland Dodge who were both trustees of Princeton University and at the same time were establishing a golf links for the University in Princeton along with other NY elites pressed for it. The NYC Parks Department website says that Pyne and others were members of the Mosholu club in Riverdale which is now also a part of the NYC public golf system and was recently renovated by Stephen Kaye.

I'm not going to recreate the next 116 years of public course development in NY or PA. Bottom line is that no one who wants to play golf in either state is poorly served. There is plenty of golf available for those that want it at all quality spectrums and priced accordingly.

I cry not for the PA and NY golfers. They live in a land of plenty. As far as Indiana and Colorado golfers, depends where you live.

Cheers,

Malcolm

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Only walked the property when visiting the campus years ago -- let me ask you this -- do you see the layout as beign better than a Wyncote or Glen Mills or Lederach ?

Malcolm:

Thanks for your post -- interesting info on the beginnings of VC -- a unique place but frankly after such a fine start -- the plight of NYC public golf indeed went south as neglect and incompetence caused such layouts to fall down the ladder considerably. It's really hatd to imagine how the paths could split as wide as they eventually did.

Ron:

I like your approach -- let's move them to another place and satisfy your desire to be right. I get it now. How bout we just allow them to remain in the state from which they occupy? Under your rationale let's just add balls to the queen and call her the king.

Dan H:

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I checked out recent census date for the greater Buffalo area -- The NY Times featured an article in today's paper and it showed the mass migration out of the area.

I just have to say this though -- quality public course architecture did happen in plenty of places in the northeast -- Bethpage is one example of it. Cobbs Creek in the greater Phila area is another. What astounds me is how little real quality did emerge because the private courses were right there to use as a comparison case.

You also have horrid cases where quality architecture never seems to emerge -- the Poconos and Catskills leap quickly to mind. Turning Stione has already been mentioned and franklly when Pete Dye decided to work in NY for the first time he flamed out with the likes of Pound Ridge which is a testament to incredibly hard holes -- pity the person who only starts with two sleeves of balls -- you'll need to call the pro shop after a few holes to reload.

Dan, functional golf does exist in certain locales in NY State -- the issue that troubles me is how quality top tier public design is really lacking. The roadmap for quality golf design was clearly present on the private side but so little thought and effort was ever done to see what the neighbors were playing and in doing so provide something of comparable fashion for the masses to play.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt:

Of the four you've listed I'd rank as follows:

Lederach
Toftrees
Wyncote

I've not played Glen Mills.

Not that one course will change your mind, but if you ever get the chance to make the trip again try to play Toftrees - I think you'll enjoy it and be impressed.

[Steve Burrows]

Matt W,

If you really want to say you have done your "legwork" or your "homework," then get off the golf course and into a library or archive.  Realize that the answers that you seek are not architectural, they are cultural.  

Again, you might be better served by being more specific with your questions.  Try to avoid being so broad, wondering why entire states are seemingly lacking in public golf options whereas their private options are so strong.  This is far too difficult to answer.  How about you methodically examine a specific area of PA or NY (Westchester County, for example), and honestly try to understand why public golf never took off.  Was it political?  Economic?  Why did specific patrons of the game choose to develop private golf rather than public?  

Perhaps when you have an answer to a very specific question, you might be able to abstract answers to a larger paradigm, rather than not being rooted in any theory and trying to work the other way around?

[Dan Herrmann]

The fact that there isn't more great golf in the Finger Lakes region confuses me.  It's one of the most beautiful areas in the USA, but it's devoid of any courses of note.

[David Harshbarger]

Matt:

Of the four you've listed I'd rank as follows:

Lederach
Toftrees
Wyncote

I've not played Glen Mills.

Not that one course will change your mind, but if you ever get the chance to make the trip again try to play Toftrees - I think you'll enjoy it and be impressed.

Kyle,  if I'd have known Toftrees was such a nice course I might not have spent so much time playing football on tee box of what think was 13 when i was 9-12. The tee boxes were the perfect shape for a field, and we'd always have an ear out for the ranger.  At night, the mounding on 12 and the transition to the 13th tee were perfect for protracted games of flashlight tag.

If 13 is the same hole we lived on, the left to right slope on the fairway of the dogleg left was perfect for sledding, and if the snow got really packed down, you could make it all the way to the woods.  When we were really adventuresome, we'd take our tobaggons over to behind the clubhouse and surf down those big hills, building jumps in the middle for extra thrills.  Good times.

We may have even poached a few holes, but the football was hard to beat!

Dave

[Ronald Montesano]

Matt, isn't this thread ultimately about the superior quality of NY and PA private golf, rather than the inferior quality of their public golf?

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

You may draw that conclusion but frankly as a dedicated publinx player since my earliest days when playing with my Dad in his beloved and native Bronx, NY -- I was shocked at how poor the overall quality of public courses are for two states that possess the best private roster anywhere in the USA with arguablly CA being the exception to that.

Ask yourself this Ron -- how do architects and developers who built and created golf playlands in NY and PA not SEE what the private side has in terms of quality? Don't you think some would have asked why can't we have something close to what is there. I remember a buddy asking me when playing Harding Park years ago and gazing at a course in the nearby distance and asking me what that is -- I told him The Olympic Club. Please don't misunderstand me -- I am not suggesting the public versions had to be in the same shape and possess all the clear design functionalities that only a private course can handle given the nature of volume of play from the public side and the rather clear starting point that public courses can and should play -- but good greens never go out of fashion -- strategic impulses can be included at a slightly modified level.

Look at the collective junkheeep that inhabits the Catskills and Poconos -- plenty of opportunities were there and for the most part you're lucky to get a course better than a Doak 3. The same thing holds true, to a slightly lesser situation on LI -- no doubt, Bethpage commands the roost -- but until very recently did you have even a modest number of above average public courses enter the scene. Tallgrass is refreshing and LI National is certainly above average although manufactured to the hilt. Like I said earlier, Pete Dye and som enter The Empire State and what do they produce -- a hefty over-priced tough-as-nails place that swallows golf balls at a rate far greater than the shark in Jaws. Then you have CCFAD created in Westchester, Orange and Putnam counties - like Mansion Ridge, Centennial and a few others -- the collective appeal is slightly better than a yawn. Only Stephen Kay's Links at Unionvale is quite fun to play.

The Upstate area is littered with functional and at times fairly interesting layouts of note. No doubt the fees, as others have mentioned, keeps them happy but I see the public / private side for both NY and PA akin to those who know the virtues in reading The NY Times and Wall Stree Journal when held against The NY Daily News and NY Post.

NY and PA remind me of the Dickens book -- "A Tale of Two Citiesi" -- it is truly a tale of twp different golf universes existing side-by-side.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

There are few areas in the USA where my personal homework is more sustained than in NY and PA. I have played a ton of the courses in both places gleaned from well over 35+ years in sampling them -- not from just reading books and archives. I will take up your suggestion -- I would hope you have some respect for my findings because they are not just thrown out without some serious evaluation.

Steve, really look at the all-star roster of privates that exist in PA and NY -- unbelievable right ? How does the public side become so littered with fast food crap that masquerades itself as available golf? Did anyone bother to look at what the privates were doing and say we can have something similar -- not exact mind you -- for the public side. Clearly, some efforts in that vein happened with the likes of Bethpage and Cobbs Creek. But they are more exception than rule.

You mentioned Westchester County (NY) and while it has functinal county-run courses -- known of them are worthy of more than a Doak 4 at best. The land was there -- clearly the county had $$ to create them -- why not engage quality architects to create several layouts of note -- if you see what is being done in Aurora, CO -- you will find such a healthy combination of different taxpayer-owned courses that is truly remarkable -- I even mentioned the sensational story tied to CommonGround and what was done on that site. Others have done it -- why is PA and NY public golf so backward in so many ways?

Steve, frankly you ask questions I cannot answer -- I just look at the finished products that were put forward. Clearly, those who were members on the private side didn't lose any sleep that the masses were playing cattraps for the most part. I have to say thank you to Robert Moses in bringing forward what would be a five-course operation at Bethpage. Someone realized years ago that the masses might enjoy the game no less than their private counterparts and should have facilities of somewhat similar standing.

Thanks for your comments.


Kyle:

Maybe we can both hook up this summer and play it !

Dan:

Agree w you 100% -- The Finger Lake region should have at least one course of national caliber -- it doesn't have anything worthy of notice that would necessitate a special trip from 100+ miles.

[Jaeger Kovich]

The fact that there isn't more great golf in the Finger Lakes region confuses me.  It's one of the most beautiful areas in the USA, but it's devoid of any courses of note.

Sorry, but after spending 4 years there, I don't think the nice people of Gevena care to much!

[Dan Herrmann]

Jaeger,
I'm using the Finger Lakes region as a metaphor for golf in upstate NY.  If you can't build good golf there....

[JNC Lyon]

Jaeger,
I'm using the Finger Lakes region as a metaphor for golf in upstate NY.  If you can't build good golf there....

In the case of the Finger Lakes, that all comes down to money.  That region of New York is both sparse in population and somewhat depressed economically.  While the land is beautiful there, the taxes and regulations are such that developers look to build the next great remote course will look elsewhere.  There is some money in that area (particularly on Canandaigua Lake), but it usually comes from one of the cities, where folks already have a golf course to play on the weekdays.

Demographics seem to be everything here.  Public golf did not really develop fully until a few decades ago, and, at this point, New York State starting doing everything it could to discourage economic development outside of New York City.  The result?  The only major golf development in modern times has been Turning Stone Casino, which could be built on Indian lands with no tax issues (meaning no taxes).  Whereas golf boomed in other states, and it did not do so in New York State.

[Matt_Ward]

The economic argument doesn't wash -- I can name remote places in ND, SD, WY and even Montana, et al,  where top tier public golf has been created and flourished. And, I am referencing time frames not just from the most recent past -- but years ago when the economic engine for NY and PA was most certianly present.

[JNC Lyon]

I think the land is cheaper and the tax incentives are much greater in the places you named than they are in Upstate New York.  Hell, the property taxes in Monroe County (Rochester) are some of the very highest in the nation!  It is much cheaper and convenient to build in the areas you listed than to build in Upstate New York.  Remoteness was not really part of my argument.  I simply said that if a developer was looking to build a remote golf course, he would run to Montana or Nebraska instead of Upstate New York.

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt,
I could be wrong here, but I think NY is similar to NJ today in that it's really tough to get permitted.  And the taxes are tough too.  Not exactly a friendly environment for a golf course developer.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

NJ isn't cheap and permitting is tough but despite these limitations -- NJ has a healthy array of public courses - both taxpayer-owned and privately owned and publicly operated. Keep in mind, NJ is about 8,000 square miles and heavily populated (most densely populated) and still has a public supply of courses that are much deeper than either PA or NY in my mind.

JNC:

There were boom times in NY -- likely not in the last few years -- the tired excuse book gets predictable because it doesn't wash out.

Keep in mind -- other public courses WERE built anyway - inspite of the obstacles you mentioned. We know how many of them turned out -- right?  

The Finger Lakes region is not any shorter than what you find in remote places like Fortune Bay in Minnesota where Jeff B designed some great public golf or with Mike DeVries doing Greywalls in Marquette, MI.

You say it's "much cheaper and convenient" -- really? The sad fact is that NY and PA don't really have any excuses on the public side --they had the templates for quality private golf right in their own backyard and what came from all the movement was lackluster public golf that is merely functional not very enlightened by any real standard.

JNC, the nation has passed NY and PA long ago on the public side of things.

[JNC Lyon]

Dan:

NJ isn't cheap and permitting is tough but despite these limitations -- NJ has a healthy array of public courses - both taxpayer-owned and privately owned and publicly operated. Keep in mind, NJ is about 8,000 square miles and heavily populated (most densely populated) and still has a public supply of courses that are much deeper than either PA or NY in my mind.

JNC:

There were boom times in NY -- likely not in the last few years -- the tired excuse book gets predictable because it doesn't wash out.

Keep in mind -- other public courses WERE built anyway - inspite of the obstacles you mentioned. We know how many of them turned out -- right?  

The Finger Lakes region is not any shorter than what you find in remote places like Fortune Bay in Minnesota where Jeff B designed some great public golf or with Mike DeVries doing Greywalls in Marquette, MI.

You say it's "much cheaper and convenient" -- really? The sad fact is that NY and PA don't really have any excuses on the public side --they had the templates for quality private golf right in their own backyard and what came from all the movement was lackluster public golf that is merely functional not very enlightened by any real standard.

JNC, the nation has passed NY and PA long ago on the public side of things.

When did the boom times in Upstate New York occur?  Most of the great layouts up here were built in the 1910s and 20s, and most of those places were and still are private layouts.  There are very few great layouts, PRIVATE OR PUBLIC, in New York built in the modern age.  They are some solid layouts, as my original thread points out, but not to the extent of the other state.

I would not call this is an excuse--it's merely an explanation.

[Matt_Ward]

Check out the time frame following World War II and the ascension of AP onto the golf scene -- plenty of solid corporations operated out of the area -- ever hear of Kodak ?

Check out also when the public courses were built there -- most have a post WWII time frame. Did any of those designs really bother to check out the pedigree of the top tier private neighbors and try to emulate many of their strengths ?

The area has been going through tough times recently -- but before the plummet started -- there were missed opportunities for quality public golf to be created. The boat was missed big time.

More excuses are the byproduct of denial -- NY and PA had a golden opportunity for some really interesting public courses of serious note. That didn't happen -- other locales have not let that same mistake happen to them. Check out Aurora, CO as just one example.

Want a great example of as top tier course built in the modern era -- check out Olde Kinderhook or to a lesser degree check out what Hanse did with Tallgrass on the Island or even what RTJ Jr did with LI National -- shockingly, the Tallgrass layout is not even listed on the public side of things from GW's state ratings, if memory serves.

JNC,, you are tapdancing -- you use vague generalized comments -- like "solid" -- compared to what? I listed other locales / states and specific places and frankly the NY contingent is like the old Texas phrase -- all hat and no cattle.

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt,
A study of the differences between Rochester and Buffalo would be telling.

Buffalo has always been larger but more "blue collar".  Rochester is small, but white collar.

Rochester has had great private courses for decades.  The Ross courses there are fantastic.

Buffalo has its Ross (CC of Buffalo), but not a lot of note past that (perhaps Niagara Falls CC, host of the Porter Cup).  But Buffalo has always had a lot more public golf than Rochester.  In line with its culture, most of that golf was post-war municipal golf.   

Honestly, if we wanted high quality public golf, we'd drive up to Toronto!

[Ronald Montesano]

Upstate List for Matt:

Buffalo-Niagara:  Seneca Hickory Stick, Links at Ivy Ridge, Harvest Hill, Diamond Hawk, Glen Oak, Arrowhead, Ironwood, Sheridan Park, Byrncliff, Peek 'n Peak

Rochester:  Ravenwood, Greystone, Mill Creek, Durand-Eastman, Deerfield

Syracuse:  Timber Banks, Lafayette Hills, Atunyote, Shenandoah

Central-East NY:   Hiawatha, Conklin, Seven Oaks, Mark Twain, En-Joie, Leatherstocking,

Upstate East: Tom Carvel, Saratoga National, Thendara, Sagamore, Pound Ridge

Matt, if one wishes to put 30 public-access courses from any other state up against these 30, I'm in for supporting them. Take a look at Bethpage...you have the greatness of the Black, the near-greatness of the Red, then on down through the other crayons. That's public golf anywhere. I cannot speak for my Pennsyltucky neighbors, but I'm sure that they can come up with a similar list.

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

Let me dissect your listing from the ones I have played.

Pound Ridge is a testament to extreme difficulty not architectural sensibilities for the masses. Give Pete and son a D+ here.

Hiawatha ? C'mon please -- so-so design that only has a hole or two of note. Ron -- you're better than that.

I do like Saratoga National -- one of Rulewich's best but it has a top tier price tag and plenty of H20 and wetlands to navigate.

En-Joie -- read Doak's comments in CG -- agree w him 100% there.

Ravenwood and Greystone are good layouts -- worthy of natinal acclaim?  Surely you jest.

The Sagamore is another Ross course of note but anyone thinking it has the fiber of a Plainfield has been sipping too much firewater.
Frankly, I really like the opening hole -- after that is has few moments of note. Gets plenty of mileage for the considerable $$ plunked down to spruce up the hotel and grounds. Leatherstocking is another above average course but the final few holes only subtract -- not add -- to its overall standing for me.

I'll weigh in on the others I have played -- shortly -- plus post the listing for Colrado that I have.

The Centennial State is miles beyond and it's not based on topography alonbe as so many think.

thanks for listing the layouts ...