NY and Pennsy Public golf ...

[Matt_Ward]

The somewhat related thread on the best public golf in Upstate NY made me ponder a more broader question -- why do The Empire and Keystone State have such a dearth of really outstanding public courses -- at least in alignment with what they offer privately.

Frankly, I can't think of any other two border states where the gap between the top tier private and what is offered on the public side is so vast -- nearly a Grand Canyon in terms of the split between the two.

No doubt the money folks who created private playgrounds weren't excatly enamored in extending their social connection to the masses. Although VC in the Bronx was the nation's first public coruse -- it's present condition is no better than it was when it first opened and you have such heavy played places like DB in Brooklyn and CC in the Phila area. Sure, I have heard the much repeated and tired call that "if only they do this" then such places will return majestically. That, alas, is more hopeful than realistic in almost 90% of the cases.

Even with flagship places like Bethpage and its storied Black layout -- the really solid array of public courses aren't that deep and frankly I would much rather visit places like Indiana and Colorado which have public offerings in very close competiion with their private counterparts.

Hats off to recent openings with the likes of Morgan Hill and Lederach by KBM in PA but in two states blessed with so much quality land it makes me shake my head in disbeliefe that public golf is not really anywhere close to what you can play privately. Truthfully, one could put together a top ten for BOTH states on the public side and you'd be lucky to gain a tie with a state like Colorado or Indiana, to name just two.

[J Sadowsky]

Is this really restricted to NY and Pennsylvania?  I guess those two places have a more storied list of great courses, so the gulf is so obvious, but it is the same here in DC.  Is it any different in Boston?  It appears to be at least an East Coast phenomenon. 

It also seems to be a historical phenomenon.  While Chicago (another “older” city) has some great new public courses, particularly if you are willing to drive an hour or two, aren’t they all of recent vintage? 

It seems to be that “older” cities, cities where the suburbs have been developed since the turn of the century, are far more likely to have the bulk of their “older” courses private.  The better newer courses are also likely to be private, because of a) the higher cost of land, and b) the increased demand, as populations increase (and, particularly, as the wealthy populations in those cities increase). 

In newer cities, this seems to be less the case, as the rich’s conspicuous consumption in those cities are less historically tied to golf anyway.  Moreover, in newer cities, land tends to be cheaper, allowing good golf courses to be developed without the need of a class of well-off people subsidizing the use of the property as a golf course.

Just my quick $.02
 

[Matt_Ward]

Justin:

The issue is not the general state of public golf in all the states -- but the massive gap in The Empire and Keystone States when you take their private side and compare / contrast to the public side. Other states in the Northeast do not have that same issue -- my home state of NJ has a good array of public courses -- those taxpayer-owned and those that operate publicly but held in private hands.

Massachusetts has a better and deeper slate of public golf -- beyond NY and PA in my mind. But The Bay State also has wonderful and top tier private layouts too.

In regards to land availability -- NY and PA had opportunities after the golf explosion in the late 50's and early 60's but the general lot of what came from that period was really lackluster -- farmland courses with little to distinguish themselves.

You mentioned Chcago -- another older city -- but you don't see anything close to what NY and PA have done.

[Carl Nichols]

Justin:
I don't think the gap is nearly as big in the DC area as in NY or Philly.  The best few privates in DC are nowhere near as good as the best privates in NY and Philly, and while we don't have Bandon-quality public courses, there are some pretty decent public (though non-muni) courses around town.  That's not to say that the private courses aren't better, just that the gap btwn the two seems smaller than in NY and Philly.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,
Who was designing exceptional public golf courses in the ‘50s and ‘60s?

What exceptional public golf courses came from that era, including exceptional NJ courses?

[Cliff Hamm]

Matt...I would generally concur with Justin. while public golf in NJ may/is better it is not stellar.  With that being said perhaps one reason is the price of real estate.  Private courses of note were built up to about the depression.  Public courses at that time were government built and generally at least serviceable but not of high quality with a few exceptions.

By the time the 'new' era of quality public courses arrived the price of land in the metropolitan areas of New York and Philadelphia made public course costs prohibitive.  Thus it is no surprise that a state like Indiana would have superior public courses.  I suspect most of those are of the newer variety.   

I might also add that Rhode Island has as wide of a gap as any state.  Connecticut does not have the premier privates of others but public also does not seem especially strong.  Massachusetts also has an awfully large gap between superb privates and what is available to the public. I therefore think it is not limited to New York and Pennsylvania but rather the entire northeast shows a significant gap.

[Matt_Ward]

Someone mentioned to me that it's hard to explain that in the more recent time frames -- especially in the go-go era after Palmer appeared on the scene and even during the golf course push in the '90's -- the public course development side in both states was really piss poor for the most part. One would be lucky to have more than five courses from both states be at Doak 6 or higher rating. And, I am really psuhing things from the ones I have personally played to believe there could be as many as five.

To the credit of NY State parks -- you do have some interesting places beyond Bethpage -- Montauk Downs comes to mind but it's never been in the 7-8 times I have played it to be especially well prepared as you see with top tier public places in CO and IN.

Look, if you have mega $$ and can network / access the upper echelon of privates in NY and PA -- then who cares about the public side there.

The reason why I started this thread is for those who post and those especially who lurk -- think twice about coming to either state and thinking that the public side is on the same page with the private side of the ledger. You will be vastly disappointed.

[Matt_Ward]

Cliff:

RI is a VERY small state so availability of land and the dollars located there were more towards the private side although how do you explain the success of Newport National?

In NJ you have the likes of The Knoll / West -- Hominy Hill, ACCC, Twisted Dune, Ballyowen and a range of others. That's quite good and frankly it's combination of courses that came on board from early days to the more recent times.

The issue is for much larger states like NY and PA -- little real quality -- more on the depth side -- has come into being. It was not just in the classic age of the 20's that I am speaking about -- I am referring to the period when the golf boom started in earnest in the USA with the ascension of Palmer and the like. Even in the go-go '90's you never really had any big time success stories on the public course development side of the aisle in those two places.

Let me mention -- that land costs beyond the immediate NYC and Phila areas was still possible -- let me point out for you and others a few exceptions happened -- I alluded to KBM's efforts with Lederach and Morgan Hill. Stephen Kay did likewise with the privately-owned but publicly operated Links at Unionvale. Even in those instances -- the overall level of their designs is no better than a 5 on the Doak scale in my mind.

Cliff, CT doesn't have anywhere near the gap as NY and PA have when privates are held against publics. The Bay State has a fine range of public courses -- does the name Crumpin-Fox ring a bell -- shall I mention the roster of courses along the Cape? Shennecossett ring a bell ? The gap is what I mentioned -- NY and PA have a significant wider one than anywhere else I can imagine.

[J Sadowsky]

Justin:
I don't think the gap is nearly as big in the DC area as in NY or Philly.  The best few privates in DC are nowhere near as good as the best privates in NY and Philly, and while we don't have Bandon-quality public courses, there are some pretty decent public (though non-muni) courses around town.  That's not to say that the private courses aren't better, just that the gap btwn the two seems smaller than in NY and Philly.

Maybe the difference is more extreme in NY than DC but I think we are a lot closer to being NY than to be, say, Seattle.  Or pick any number of random western "younger" cities.  How about Denver? Boulder?  Minneapolis?  Portland? Any major Texas city?  

It's still my intuition that the biggest factors between the difference in public and private quality in a city are the historic culture of the leisure class in that city - as to whether it is established and to what degree the golf/country club was part of the "conspicuous consumption" of that class, the size of the leisure class in that city (both historically and today), and the price of land.

[Carl Nichols]

Justin:
I don't think the gap is nearly as big in the DC area as in NY or Philly.  The best few privates in DC are nowhere near as good as the best privates in NY and Philly, and while we don't have Bandon-quality public courses, there are some pretty decent public (though non-muni) courses around town.  That's not to say that the private courses aren't better, just that the gap btwn the two seems smaller than in NY and Philly.

Maybe the difference is more extreme in NY than DC but I think we are a lot closer to being NY than to be, say, Seattle.  Or pick any number of random western "younger" cities.  How about Denver? Boulder?  Minneapolis?  Portland? Any major Texas city?  

It's still my intuition that the biggest factors between the difference in public and private quality in a city are the historic culture of the leisure class in that city - as to whether it is established and to what degree the golf/country club was part of the "conspicuous consumption" of that class, the size of the leisure class in that city (both historically and today), and the price of land.

I don't know enough about many of those other cities, but the sense I have is that in at least some, the gap between private and public is about the same as DC.  What are the really good public courses close to Denver?  [Colorado may have great public golf, but is it really Denver-area golf?]  Minneapolis?  Houston?  Each of those cities has private golf that's at least comparable to DC, but are the public courses really much better?   

[Jaeger Kovich]

Matt, you are very much correct from the NY side.

I grew up in NYC where I discovered golf by beating balls at Randall's Island driving range nearly 10 years ago (I'm 24 now). My family never belong to any club, so trying to exciting places for me to play is pretty much how I gained interest in golf course design in the first place. When you dont always have much to choose between, you really start to analyze what you like and what you dont like in the courses you have seen.

Having one way or another found my way onto many of the best private layouts in the area, there is virtually nothing public access that can compare after. While there are certainly more public access stuff in the area still to sample, I've seen most of what there is to offer in my NYC area, and it is rare to find a course that can hold my attention for a full round for any number of reasons. You are lucky to find a few good holes even on the more expensive and newer public courses.

To put it a slightly different perspective on things; sure there are some decent public facilities in the area, but I can tell you this, you will not find members of any of the private clubs I know even slightly interested in playing any of the publics, unless its Bethpage Black.

[J Sadowsky]

Off the top of my head:

Denver - Commonground, Broadmoor, Fossil Trace, Castle Pines

Houston - Maybe this was a bad example.  Still, Memorial Park, Redstone, Meadowbrook Farms

Minnesota - StoneRidge, Mystic Ridge, Meadows, Chaska Town, Meadowbrook, Keller Golf Course, Edinburgh, etc.

DC's best publics are all ok - and aside from Laurel Hill, they're all at least an hour from the city.  Whereas DC has a *number* of great private courses - not only Congressional and RTJ, but also Columbia, Four Streams, Burning Tree - the best public course in the DC area couldn't crack the top 10, probably not even top 15-20, courses in the DC area.  In NY, I don't think that's true, if only because of Bethpage Black (though it may be true in Philly).

[Cliff Hamm]

Cliff:

RI is a VERY small state so availability of land and the dollars located there were more towards the private side although how do you explain the success of Newport National?

In NJ you have the likes of The Knoll / West -- Hominy Hill, ACCC, Twisted Dune, Ballyowen and a range of others. That's quite good and frankly it's combination of courses that came on board from early days to the more recent times.

Cliff, CT doesn't have anywhere near the gap as NY and PA have when privates are held against publics. The Bay State has a fine range of public courses -- does the name Crumpin-Fox ring a bell -- shall I mention the roster of courses along the Cape? Shennecossett ring a bell ? The gap is what I mentioned -- NY and PA have a significant wider one than anywhere else I can imagine.

Matt...interesting that many of the publics you mentioned started as private courses - Shennecosssett, ACCC, Knoll - West.  Likewise Newport National was built as a private course and went bankrupt 8 years or so ago.  If the economy were better I suspect it would be private again.

As for Massachusetts the quality of public might be better then Pa/NY but none of them would break into the top 10 or 20 privates so the gap is not small.  The explosion of public courses on the Cape is somewhat unique as it was largely done as an asset to the town to attract retirees and to a lesser extent tourist dollars.  Also, none of them are exceptional altho quite enjoyable.  

[Kevin Lynch]

Matt,

I suspect there are a number of factors, some of which have been referred to:

DEMOGRAPHICS / CULTURE
I think Justin was right that it is largely affected by historic culture / demographics.  Treating downstate New York / Philly Region as their own separate universe, how much of the working population of Upstate NY / Central & West PA was associated with agriculture or blue-collar union labor?  Would this lend itself to "upscale" public golf or private investment in public golf?

Several months ago, I remember a thread you lead on Government Involvement in Golf.  I remember that our experiences of Government Involvement varied widely.  You experienced a number of Government Investments competing with private interests.  However, in Western NY, municipal courses were mainly built to accommodate a population under-served by the private sector.  Buffalo has a number of Old Money Private Clubs, but there are very few privately-owned public access facilities.  That has changed with the addition of several non-government public courses in recent years, but many courses here were muni's built with an eye on offering a low cost option to a largely blue-collar population, rather than creating elite designs.

TOPOGRAPHY
Many of the courses I've played in the Southern Tier of NY / Northwest PA feature pretty extreme elevation changes (usually heavily wooded).  This lends itself to "quirky / sporty" designs (which I enjoy), but it may not gain widespread acceptance as elite design.  I imagine the Adirondacks have the same issue.


DOWNSTATE / PHILLY
I imagine the quality of public courses in these regions were driven by land availability.  If the perfect land could be acquired, it was probably for a Private Club (with Bethpage being your notable exception).  These areas had access to the great architects of the day (e.g. Tillie in Philly area). 

I'm not familiar enough with NJ Public options, but were they far enough away to have available land, but close enough to tap into the great architects along the East Coast?  In more current days, were the populations of these areas built less on blue-collar labor, thus increasing the desire for more upscale optios?

Just throwing out some ideas.  I'll hang up and listen.

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin:

Terrain issues have been faced in other states -- Northeast and elsewhere and have been overcome. The rural landscape has not been used to any degree for quality golf -- plenty of the farmland stuff that calls itself golf in NY and PA should have been plowed under and returned to hosting crops -- not golfers. Bethpage Black is likely the only public course in NY and PA that could garner a solid 7 on the Doak scale -- possbly an 8. The rest are in the 4-5 range -- Lederach and Leatherstocking certainly are better than a 4-5 but would be no more than a 6 in my mind.

Let me update your history lesson -- there's been plenty of time that has passed since World War II and with AP coming onto the golf scene and the go-go design and build periods -- the '90's being one of those times -- nothing really emerged in PA and NY public golf. Take Indiana and Colorado -- there SECOND tied of public courses can beat like a drum what The Empre and Keystone States put out for top tier public play.

The cost of land is also incorrect -- rural land in NY and PA was available and public courses were built close enough to the NYC area -- Mansion Ridge is fine but nothing special -- Centennial is in the same general area and is an overpriced CCFAD - I could list others as well.

One other thing -- I never said there needed to be "elite designs" but something more than just a hole cut into the ground -- don't you think. I have had the good opportunity to play almost all of the leading candidates publicly and frankly the public side is really a disgrace of missed opportunities -- heck, until the $$ and efforts were applied -- Bethpage Black was closer to what you see at Cobbs Creek today.

NJ, my home state -- doesn't have exceptional public golf but it's overall consistency is better than either of its two neighbors.


Jaeger:

Your personal story interested me -- mine, when I was younger and starting to play was rather similar. I was forced to play places where grass grew up accident -- not by design. The differences were enormous -- but at least NJ has developed over the course of my lifetime some really good public courses to play. They are not at the level of Bethpage Black but there's more depth in the Garden State than what you see in either NY or Pennsy -- especially given their overall size.

Carl:

There have been numerous discussions on quality public golf 50 miles and around the core Denver area. You can search what's been said previously -- Denver is way ahead -- just check out the listings alone for Aurora, CO.

Justin:

Help me out -- "great" private clubs in the DC area. Please knock yourself out and list them. Congressional is not one of them if you head in that direction -- just long and frankly quite a bore -- consider it the Baltusrol Lower of the DC area. If you want to list Four Streams that's fine but it's not great in my book -- very well done at the most. Columbia CC ? Burning Tree ? Qualioty public golf has been present in the Loudon County area and you have plenty of good ones in and around the Baltimore / DC area. It's not anywhere the gap you see with NY and Pennsy.

Justtin -- you keep harping on the price of land -- most of Pennsy and NY is quite rural -- you seem to be zeroing in on the Bucks County and greater NYC metro area with your replies. The opportunities were there to have quality public golf that would be quite interesting -- nothing really materialized and those that did come on board with largely been forgettable.

Cliff:

RI is an obvious aberation given its sheer small size -- private golf was the only game there for years until some of the others emerged --Newport National changing hands is one example of that.

NJ public golf has a solid range of golf offerings and keep this in mind -- we are talking about an area of roughly 8,000 square miles -- that pales to what you see in size with NY and Pennsy. Yes, a few of the ones I mentioned were private at one time but they were picked up by the appropriate parties to be public and have remained so -- some doing even better than one might have expected with their new owners.

Cliff, c'mon, please nuff of the Bay State public side qualifier "might be better" than its private counterparts. I can name a top ten public in MA and size it up against what either NY or Pennsy can bring to bear and the differences will be there. One other thing -- MA private golf is very good -- but it's a few steps behind the sheer depth of what you see in NY and PA. There's no "might be better" in that.

When I mentioned quality public golf -- I never used the word exceptional -- you did. What I said is that the gap in NY and Pennsy truly is hard to fathom given the pedigree of the private side of things. There have been numerous opportunities over the years to ramp up the public side but little has come forward that would be especially noteworthy -- heck when Pete Dye invaded the NY golf scene he did so with Pound Rigde -- a course noted more fot its overall demands than quality architecture. Other states in the Northeast have done that or at the very minimum -- not had a wide disparity between what is there privately and what is available publicly.

One last thing -- you mentioned the word "stellar" public golf -- define the term more specifically and include the names of public courses -- not just the CCFAD variety -- that would meet your definition.?

Justin:

FYI -- muni golf got its start in NYC with VC -- long before many of the private clubs -- the elite ones got rolling.

[J Sadowsky]

Justin:

Help me out -- "great" private clubs in the DC area. Please knock yourself out and list them. Congressional is not one of them if you head in that direction -- just long and frankly quite a bore -- consider it the Baltusrol Lower of the DC area. If you want to list Four Streams that's fine but it's not great in my book -- very well done at the most. Columbia CC ? Burning Tree ? Qualioty public golf has been present in the Loudon County area and you have plenty of good ones in and around the Baltimore / DC area. It's not anywhere the gap you see with NY and Pennsy.

REPLY:  Your view of good/great architecture is rather high, if it's not even including Baltrusol Lower.  If there are truly less than 100 relevant courses to this analysis, by your own estimates, then, NY by simple fact of having Bethpage Black is fine regarding public courses, as most states would have zero public courses relevant to the analysis.

What great public courses exist in Loudon?  Virginia has 2 very good publics - Laurel Hill, and to a lesser degree, Stonewall GC.   Neither are in Loudon County.  You then have to go at leat to Spotsylvania County to find decent courses, AFAIK (I have yet to see 1757 Golf Club, fwiw).

Other than these courses, I just don't see the logic where you can call what's available "quality" but Columbia, Woodmont, Woodmore, Congressional, etc. boring.

Justtin -- you keep harping on the price of land -- most of Pennsy and NY is quite rural -- you seem to be zeroing in on the Bucks County and greater NYC metro area with your replies. The opportunities were there to have quality public golf that would be quite interesting -- nothing really materialized and those that did come on board with largely been forgettable.

REPLY - I apologize for having thought you were referring to simply NYC and Philadelphia  - because, outside of Oakmont, these are the areas where these states' best private courses are centered.  For the record, I don't think the answer is due to the haphazard arbitrariness of state boundaries.  Whatever flaw to golf design Western PA has, Eastern OH has it too.  Whatever flaw the eastern part of New York has to golf design is shared by NH and VT.

That being said, for the population I don't think your analysis is right once you take away Philly and NYC, anyway.   New York may not have anything "top 100" great, but it has numerous good courses, mostly outside of the NYC area.  Given the private offerings in upstate NY, Saratoga, Ravenwood, Leatherstocking, Colgate, Sagamore, and the Turning Stone courses are a pretty good list of public alternatives.  Same with non-Philly, PA - you have Bedford Springs, Nemacolin, Olde Stonewall, Quiksilver, etc.  - not really a terrible run of courses, except when compared to Oakmont or to the numerous Top-100 calibur courses in the Philly area.  

The Golf Club at Landsdowne I guess is "public" in the sense that, though a private club, they also allow resort (but not non-resort) public play.  It's not a particularly helpful distinction if you live in the area, of course.  I'm not particularly impressed with Raspberry Falls.

Baltimore has a few - Bulle Rock, Greywall, Beechtree (NLE), but most of them north of the city, away from DC, where land is much cheaper (and even Beechtree gave away to real estate).  There are also a couple of decent courses at the very end of 270 shared by Baltimore and DC - but this is a real hike for most, and out where land is super cheap.

I will say that the exceptional work Bill Love did with Laurel Hill and the new Lake Presidential facility, CCFAD golf ($100 a round each) that is actually within a reasonable stone's throw of DC has gotten slightly better.

FYI -- muni golf got its start in NYC with VC -- long before many of the private clubs -- the elite ones got rolling.

REPLY:  Having called VCGC my first home course, I am well aware.

[Matthew Petersen]

It's certainly not a problem limited to areas with older courses, because few areas have more of a disparity between public and private offerings than does Arizona.

[J Sadowsky]

It's certainly not a problem limited to areas with older courses, because few areas have more of a disparity between public and private offerings than does Arizona.

We-ko-pa, talking stick, boulders, troon north, and TPC?  I call shenanigans.  Golfweek's "best courses you can play" goes 25 deep in AZ - only FL and CA also go that deep.  If I had to list the states that had the *least* amount of disparity, after HI, NV, and FL, I would think that AZ would be in the next batch of states with CO, UT, NM (and maybe WV and ID), if only because of the resorts.  Are AZ's private courses that good?

[Matt_Ward]

Justin:

You said DC has "great" private courses. Please feel free to list them as you define it. I define "great" as Winged Foot West, Shinnecock, Merion, Oakmont -- got the picture now.

Known of the privates you listed for DC are "great" -- Congressional is a toughened up snorefest. Woodmont is better but frankly Columbia and Woodmore would likely not even draw a footnote of attention when held against the sheer depth of Phil and NYC metro area private courses.

You must have forgotten Four Streams in MD. The issue is the GAP between private and public -- VA and MD public golf are
more deeper than either NY or PA -- and I'm only counting those areas of VA and MD closest to DC -- the rest of those respective states do have other quality public courses.

You also inserted "top 100" into the picture -- that's was never my point on this thread. It's about the massive gap that NY and PA both share when private v public courses are weighed. There's nothing like it anywhere in the USA and even when the golf boom was on for development -- the courses that PA and NY created on the public side were truly inferior -- more than anything else -- they are simply holes being cut into the ground and devoid of anything that was unique / special.

One final thing -- AZ does have stellar private courses and the public side also can hold its own -- not at the same level but far from the gap that Pennsy and NY State bring to the table when public are weighed against private courses.

[Matthew Petersen]

It's certainly not a problem limited to areas with older courses, because few areas have more of a disparity between public and private offerings than does Arizona.

We-ko-pa, talking stick, boulders, troon north, and TPC?  I call shenanigans.  Golfweek's "best courses you can play" goes 25 deep in AZ - only FL and CA also go that deep.  If I had to list the states that had the *least* amount of disparity, after HI, NV, and FL, I would think that AZ would be in the next batch of states with CO, UT, NM (and maybe WV and ID), if only because of the resorts.  Are AZ's private courses that good?

And yet look at any list of best overall courses in the state. Nary a public entity in the top 10, rarely more than 2-3 in the top 25.

I've highlighted the public tracks.

Golf Digest's list:

1    Forest Highlands Golf Club - The Canyon Course
   Flagstaff, AZ
2    The Estancia Club - Estancia Course
   Scottsdale, AZ
3    Seven Canyons - Four Seasons Course
   Sedona, AZ
4    Desert Forest Golf Club - Desert Forest Course
   Carefree, AZ
5    Stone Canyon Club - Stone Canyon Course
   Tucson, AZ
6    The Rim Golf Club - Rim Course
   Payson, AZ
7    Whisper Rock Golf Club - Lower Course
   Scottsdale, AZ
7    Whisper Rock Golf Club - Upper Course
   Scottsdale, AZ
8    The Golf Club Scottsdale - Golf Club Scottsdale Course
   Scottsdale, AZ
9    Forest Highlands Golf Club - The Meadow Course
   Flagstaff, AZ
10    Troon Country Club - Troon Course
   Scottsdale, AZ
11    The Gallery Golf Club - North Course
   Marana, AZ
12    The Golf Club At Chaparral Pines - Chaparral Pines Course
   Payson, AZ
13    Troon North Golf Club - Monument Course
   Scottsdale, AZ
14    The Desert Mountain Club - Chiricahua Course
   Scottsdale, AZ
15    Mirabel Golf Club - Mirabel Course
   Scottsdale, AZ
16    Desert Highlands Golf Club - Desert Highlands Course
   Scottsdale, AZ
17    Quintero Golf & Country Club - The Founders Course
   Peoria, AZ
18    The Desert Mountain Club - Renegade Course
   Scottsdale, AZ
19    Talking Rock Golf Club - Talking Rock Course
   Prescott, AZ
20    The Silverleaf Club - Silverleaf Course
   Scottsdale, AZ
21    The Desert Mountain Club - Geronimo Course
   Scottsdale, AZ
22    The Desert Mountain Club - Cochise Course
   Scottsdale, AZ
23    Anthem Golf & Country Club - Persimmon Course
   Anthem, AZ
24    Troon North Golf Club - Pinnacle Course
   Scottsdale, AZ
25    The Gallery Golf Club - South Course
   Marana, AZ

[Matt_Ward]

Matt P:

You must be missing something on what this thread is about -- it's not that private versus public disparities happen in plenty of places --it's the G-A-P that exists more so from NY and PA than any other state in my mind.

You cited the GD state listing of AZ as some sort of information listing -- frankly, as someone who has played countless rounds in AZ - the list isn't exactly that great when I see some clear public places that are left off -- Vista Verde being one of them.

AZ does have good quality public courses in plenty of places and while none is likely at the level of a WR / Lower or a Forest Highlands / Canyon, to name just two -- the GAP between the private and public sides isn't as night and day as you see with NY and PA -- keep in mind if a lisiting of the states with the best private courses were mentioned -- NY and PA would likely be in the top 3 -- the only competition coming from CA. On the public side if NY and PA were weighed -- they would be far down the list for the reasons I mentioned. If the same qiuestion were asked about AZ golf 20 years ago the range of public course options would have been far, far less. That's not the case now. In its original form AZ golf was geared towards those wanting a private golf club experience likely tied to a gated community where they could shut out all others -- the market there has certainly matured to more golf choices than ever before.

[Michael Blake]

Matt,

Maybe the architects who've designed the public tracks could've done better.
Could it be as simple as that?

[Matt_Ward]

Michael:

Keep this in mind -- NY and PA did have visits from top tier architects -- including the likes of Nicklaus, Palmer, Rees Jones, Tom Fazio, etc, etc, etc. Amazingly, an architect like KBM did a wonderful job in elevating Pennsy public golf with the likes of Morgan Hill and Lederach. If Kelly could do so -- what prevented others ?

Too bad C&C and Doak never did anything public in those two states but clearly the private side likely interested them more because of being less constrained on that side of the design aisle.

Anyone who plays NY and PA private golf is just blown away by not only the first five courses of greatness -- but the sheer depth extends well down the listing. The public side -- is really a patch work of so-so layouts -- Turning Stone could have presented a real opportunity but the collective nature of courses there is just so average -- no doubt, difficulty is there in spots but nothing really magical for sure. On the Pennsy side -- you had a range of public courses created in Western PA over the years by a range of good architects but the collective work is also so-so at best -- nothing to remotely be mentioned with the likes of a Fox Chapel or Pittsburgh Field Club and I won't even mention the likes of an Oakmont. Bedford Springs and Nemacolin Woodlands offer their own version of public golf -- but I found both of them to be more about the amenities provided than the overall qualities of their respective courses which are clearly designed with different intents from the likes of Tillinghast and Dye respectively.

Michael, you're right -- the public designs could have been done better (see Pete Dye's Pound Ridge as just one example in NY) -- certainly there were opportunities but for those who come to NY and PA and expect to play top tier public courses I'd say save your $$ and shaop elsewhere. If you can access the private ones you'll have the best of times.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Golfweek's Top 5 in PA:

Pennsylvania

1.Bedford Springs Resort, Bedford (c)
2.Nemacolin Woodlands Resort (Mystic Rock), Farmington (m)
3.Olde Stonewall, Ellwood City (m)
4.GC at Glen Mills, Glen Mills (m)
5.Wyncote, Oxford (m)


Golfweek's Top 5 in NY:

New York

1.Bethpage State Park (Black), Farmingdale (No. 19 c)
2.Saratoga National, Saratoga (m)
3.Ravenwood, Victor, (m)
4.Leatherstocking, Cooperstown (c)
5.Links at Hiawatha Landing, Apalachin (m)


Matt,

Your case is well stated as only 1 course makes a GW Best Classic or Modern list- Bethpage.


As far as AZ goes, the quality of the public courses there far exceeds those in PA or NY  with the exception of Black. I haven't played Beford Springs yet so I can't comment on that one. Have you played Bedford Springs?

[David Harshbarger]

Matt,

I'm going to make a "follow the money" argument of sorts.

You have to separate downstate from upstate.

Downstate, you have the top golden age architects building their best work in a private club era.  On top of that, when you have such high quality private courses in the social and economic capital of the U.S., these clubs exert a tremendous draw to maintain members and course qualities.  With the strong and ever increasing land values, this puts tremendous pressure on land owners to sell out.  On the public side, are there privately owned public courses in metropolitan NY?

Upstate doesn't have nearly the wealth to maintain a robust private club ecosystem similar to downstate.  Rochester had great wealth, but Kodak is a shell of its former self, the population is shrinking.  Albany is a government town.  Drive along lake Eerie in Buffalo to see the ravages of industrial implosion.  Pile on top of that a continuing exodus to the South.  Who's building courses here when NY residents are moving to live on courses in FL?

Much has been made of Turning Stone and I guess from an earlier era the Catskill Resort Courses.  Resort courses are courses at resorts, and in these cases, not golf resorts, like Pinehurst or Bandon, but Gambling or summer resorts.  I'd love to here from  professionals what is different when building a course who's purpose is to be part of a resort experience, rather than the basis for the resort.  I suspect that the goal is to provide a differentiated experience to the public golfer, not an exotic experience to the passionate golfer.  The succesful architecture in that case not wear well as the standards evolve over time.

The rest of the quality upstate market seems to consist of a few handfuls of golden age designs, in some sense downstate wannabes, a bunch of mid century munis, and the usual assortment of homegrown work.  

The golden age designs top the public list (though they pale in comparison to their designer's in state private work). The mid-century work never rates.  The resort work serves a different purpose.  The aging demographic upstate isn't drawing significant new work.  Hence, the big gap.

That's my story, now blow it apart.