Fazio Bashing...World Woods

« **on:** February 04, 2002, 08:24:32 PM »

It is obvious that the purists that frequent this site have little love for Tom Fazio.

I am going to Florida in April and am curious to hear the everyone's thoughts on World Woods. Is it original work with the flavor of his famous NJ home course, or just a big budget knock off.

« **Reply #1 on:** February 04, 2002, 09:55:56 PM »

Actually World Woods gets a fair amount of good press here. The only major complaints have been the off season conditions. Do a little search and quite a bit should pop up. I prefered the Pine Barrens course, but a few have voted for the Rolling one. I don't know what big budget implies, but for $100 you can get in 36, a 9 hole short course, 3 practice holes and a huge practice area. If I go back I'll play the Barrens course twice and play for more beers on the short course during twilight.
I can't recall the name, but recently a nearby A. Hills design was suggested. Maybe a Tommy N. bunker photo.

« **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2002, 10:51:26 PM »

The golf course near World Woods is the Dunes Course at Seville. I have no idea if it is worth playing, however.

« **Reply #3 on:** February 05, 2002, 03:38:55 AM »

Both courses at World Woods are quite good and the
practice facilities are top-notch. Pine Barrens was my
favorite (by far) of the two.

« **Reply #4 on:** February 05, 2002, 03:50:10 AM »

I haven't played at World Woods yet, but I generally hear good things about the Pine Barrens course. Perhaps we can get together a group of GCA guys there some day this year.

« **Reply #5 on:** February 05, 2002, 04:32:13 AM »

matts,

World Wood Pine Barrens is an excellent golf course, while Rolling Oaks is very good, as well. I would heartily recommend a visit, but can't speak to conditioning that others mentioned.

I also remember that John Conley from this board is very impressed with Seville, and posted some cool-looking pics of it here a few months back.

No Fazio bashing here...just call 'em like I see 'em.

« **Reply #6 on:** February 05, 2002, 05:06:42 AM »

Pine Barrens is one of the better ten public courses in the US. Rolling Meadows is a really fun golf course to play, although probably a little overrated when it sneaks into a top 100 list. The practice facility might be the best I have ever seen. The place is world class. Do not miss it if you are in the area.

« **Reply #7 on:** February 05, 2002, 05:16:45 AM »

From the head basher himself

WW Pine Barrens is a top 10 or 15 modern course and deserves it in spite of a wacky back 9 routing (He never seems to get those right) Must play, innovative, not a copy, what Pine Hill could have been.

Rolling Oaks is a better than average modern course and much better routed than most Fazio courses. It suffers by comparison to Pine Barrens, but it is really pretty darn good.

Go to WDW and play OSprey Ridge and forget it is at Disney. It gets overlooked and underappreciated. It is better than Rolling Oaks and probably would be the equal or better of Black Diamond if it had a 600 foot deep quarry out of the Jurassic Park set to make it more of a calendar course.

The 36 hole deal at World Woods is unbeatable, even if it is cart ball.

« **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2002, 05:51:01 AM »

Pine Barrens is worth the visit, didn't get around Rolling Oaks.

I found little of interest at The Dunes at Seville, especially after the hype it got in Driving the Green, which was the impetus for the visit. Routing is fine, but the architecture and detail work rank low. There's even one green site with a drain line poking out of the bunker face...which reflects the care taken in a nutshell. The most interesting parts of the property are outside the fairways and little was done to bring that character into the course, or it was bulldozed out. The property had the quality to be something different but...perhaps it's been redone.

With World Woods down the street, and the way the course is now, their best plan of action would be to go back, bring in a small dozer, excavator, tractor, dumper, sand pro and a crew of hand workers and rid themselves of the mounds and redo the angular 80's style architecture (green sites) with greens and bunkering like Pinehurst No.2...not likely to happen, but that's what I'd do...then you'd have a version of Pine Valley, Augusta and Pinehurst within minutes of each other.

Would be interested in hearing your take after a tour.

« **Reply #9 on:** February 05, 2002, 06:12:58 AM »

Matts -
I played WW - Pine Barrens over the holidays and found the course to be impeccable shape. The facility will play host to the PGA Tour Qualifying tournament, which has placed a fire under the maintenance crew. The greens, which I understand were the main problem, were rolling very nicely.

I found the routing to be pretty good, and unlike a number a fazio courses, it is eminently walkable. This is regrettable, since they don't allow walking (i don't think).

its the best course for hundreds of miles.

« **Reply #10 on:** February 05, 2002, 10:33:05 AM »

SPDB:

World Woods should make for an excellent Q-School
location.

« **Reply #11 on:** February 05, 2002, 11:20:52 AM »

SPDB,

They DO in fact allow walking on WW's Pine Barrens course, as I did it the day I played there last summer. Unfortunately, the course is completely set up as a "cart-ball" layout making it harder for us "hoofers" to get around and between holes.

No matter, it was still fun to walk it anyways...

« **Reply #12 on:** February 05, 2002, 12:09:01 PM »

Excellent facility, practice area superb, Pine Barrens excellent, Rolling Oaks a cut below. Note the lack of decent. hotel space in the area but the golf makes it worth the ride.

« **Reply #13 on:** February 05, 2002, 12:09:06 PM »

World Woods did host the first round of the Q school qualifying tournyment this past year. I believe Ty Tryon finished first. They are trying to get the final round sometime in the future, maybe even next year. I also heard it will be hosting a Shell Wonderful World of Golf with Phil Mickelson and a player to be named later which will be filmed this spring. As a side note, apparently the course has had its best year as far as volume, primarly because of the new freeway that was built in the area. It cuts the drive from Tampa from 1.5 hours to 45 minutes. I'll bet that you'll see the planned third course open in the near future along with a hotel and conference center. In my opinion it would be wise for World Woods to buy up Seville, do some remodeling, and offer it as part of it's package of courses.

« **Reply #14 on:** February 05, 2002, 12:23:09 PM »

Bandon and World Woods seem to be proof positive that if you build it they will come. They are two of the best facilities built in the last 20 years, and among the best 36 hole facilities ever built.

Does this mean we revisit the GolfClubAtlas syndicate buy of the Links of North Dakota?

« **Reply #15 on:** February 05, 2002, 03:11:35 PM »

Buying the Links would at least guarantee that some people
might visit North Dakota.

« **Reply #16 on:** February 05, 2002, 08:19:06 PM »

I've played all the courses mentioned above. Pine Barrens is excellent, Rolling Oaks is average. Seville was good concidering its really cheap too. Go to Black Diamond if you can, its really enjoyable too. Fazio may be an easy target (for some), but the courses are always fun to play. You won't be disappointed

« **Reply #17 on:** February 05, 2002, 09:30:57 PM »

Matts:

Well there you have it. Not a cross word about Tom Fazio's work at World Woods. It really is a special place. And accessible, which most top American courses are not.

Tony:

Sorry you didn't like the Dunes as much as I do. You are the first person I've heard say they didn't care for it. I don't expect much at that rate, so I was very surprised. I consider it a FLORIDA TOP 50, which translates to top 5%.

My discussion from a couple months ago may be found on the board under "Guess Which Course". I'll try to bring it up since there has been interest in it.

« **Reply #18 on:** February 06, 2002, 07:22:25 AM »

John: I remember the photo's...especially the 17th. If the remainder of the work reached that level the course would have been interesting. The routing is fine. The remainder left me thinking what a wasted opportunity. It's too often angular in a setting which doesn't lend itself to it.

Doesn't the scale of the site and the topography lend itself more to a Pinehurst No.2 type feel, a lay of the land type design than the angular work existing? Or if they had more coin, could have made it more bumpy, more rolling by tying-in features like those found in the out-of-play areas...the blow-outs? Perhaps they existed but were flattenend out...I don't know, haven't seen the original maps.

There were some fine points, the short par-3 set atop the ridge with blow-out type bunkers for example, but there was just too little of that type of interest. Next to Pine Barrens it doesn't compare in my book, and I believe the site lends itself to a course that would.

« **Reply #19 on:** February 06, 2002, 08:08:04 PM »

Tony:

We agree. I shouldn't have said I hadn't heard of people that didn't like it. What I have heard is from those who complain about conditions and not the magnitude of the project or quality of turf.

It was in good shape the two times I played it.

People talk so much about a design that "works with the land" and I find that at the Dunes. The project is so low-end and has had nothing but financial woes (I've heard, can't confirm or cite specifics) that a higher attention to the detail you seek isn't there.

The craters are the result of bombings. Pretty cool in my book. How much Arthur Hills "bunker work" is present I don't know. I tell people that he didn't have the budget to address the holes so they just went around the pits. When I read "Driving the Green" I'll find out how close that is to the truth.

« **Reply #20 on:** February 07, 2002, 02:28:45 PM »

Playing 36-holes at World Woods is probably one of the best golf experiences going for a daily facility. It is pure golf (sorry for the pun) The short course is nothing special but get there early to use the 25 acre range and stay late for some money matches on the two acre putting green. Be sure to play the three practice holes as well. I have been taking a group of twelve single digit handicaps from our club for the past five years. Every year we discuss possibly changing our venue. We have yet to find a any place better. If you fly into Tampa be sure to play Lake Jovita on your way up to WW. The best accomodations (hotels are few and far between) is easily the Plantation Inn in Crystal River. Ask about the condos and the WW discount!

I love both courses. They are very different and serve to compliment each other very well. The conditions have been questionable at times, however since IGM has taken over the maintenance the courses have been in great shape. I generally describe WW as "Disney World" for a golfer.

« **Reply #21 on:** February 08, 2002, 06:03:24 AM »

Was just at World Woods yesterday and also at Seville! Pine Barrens is an excellent tract, one of Fazio's best. Rolling Oaks is "pretty" and I'll leave it at that.

I really liked Seville. Very low profile design and except for some overdone greensites particularly on the front side, the course is a gem that should not be passed up if you are in the area. The course has some really cool golf holes including one of the best up hill par threes I've seen in some time! If Hills hadn't pushed quite so much dirt (really sand) around on a few of the holes, this course had potential to be one of the best four or five courses in Florida. It's still one of the best in Florida that I have seen. If you only have time for two rounds, play Pine Barrens, skip Rolling Oaks and go play Seville (10 minutes away).

Mark

No the conditions at Seville are not as pristine as World Woods, but who cares, this is GOLF. I thought Seville looked and played great.

« **Reply #22 on:** February 08, 2002, 07:07:20 AM »

I think the Pine Barrons course is excellent. There may be one or two holes that are questionable but the overall course is outstanding. The Rolling oaks course is fun but not as challenging as Pine Barrons. The eight and ninth holes are quite memorable.

Making a day of golf at World Woods is great because you have everything right there 36 holes, amazing practice facility, short course and practice holes. And the price considering the amenities is very reasonable. Besides, there is nothing else for miles.

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