What is at stake (in that NGLA thread)?

[Dan Kelly]

I'm curious -- but not curious enough to read 32 pages worth of arguments.

I'm just wondering: What in the world could possibly be worth all of the effort (and unhappiness, apparently) invested in that thread?

If someone could brief the case, I'd appreciate it -- as, perhaps, would others.

Dan

[JESII]

Dan,

There's a movie with, among others, Orlando Bloom as the key in a losing stage of the continuing Battle for Jerusalem called The Kingdom of Heaven. In surrendering the city to the Muslim leader Sallahudin his character asks a similar question:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6aPgA5549g&feature=related




The other answer is...boredom...

[Peter Pallotta]

I'd tell you, Dan - but then this thread would soon replicate that one.

But I will say this: the story around here is always the same story, i.e. that the official story is not the complete/accurate story, and that good narrative does not good history make.

In some sense, the best and worst of gca.com -- a search for historical truth, and a quest to prove everyone else wrong.

Peter  

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

A lot is at stake!!!!

Was the road paved or just dirt in 1907?

We need to know, nay, we demand to know!!!

[Mike Cirba]

As Lyndon Johnson might say, in a troubled world of war and pestilence, it's not worth a cup of warm spit at the end of the day.

However, we do tend to be a curious, argumentative sort around these parts.

At best, a long winter's diversion where perhaps more of the details of the story of the creation of NGLA have emerged, sometimes despite our getting in the way.

[Dan Kelly]

Thank you, gentlemen.

Perhaps gca.com needs a Supreme Court.

Adversaries submit briefs, presenting their best evidence; respond to nquiries from the bench; live with the Court's decision.

[Michael Dugger]

Perhaps gca.com needs a Supreme Court.

Or a benevolent dictator...

[Bill_McBride]

As Lyndon Johnson might say, in a troubled world of war and pestilence, it's not worth a cup of warm spit at the end of the day.

Wasn't that Alban Barkley's description of the vice presidency?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Dan,
The thread was started by dyspeptic Philadelphians (some from the sidelines) trying to take shots at CBM because they have never gotten over the fact that he (and Whigham) had a hand in designing Merion, so for 'them' it's a matter of honor, given their parochial natures.  

My personal opinion is that they should first be happy that CBM steered them on the right course, and second, they should be happy that Wilson eventually took a trip overseas to see the actual holes whose concepts he was hoping to recreate, otherwise his resume would have a hole in it large enough to drive a golf cart* through.

edit: *make that a Mack truck. 

[Mike Cirba]

Geez Jim...

I've been called a lot of things but Dyspeptic is a new one.    

I do reject your categorization...I think the thread actually glorifies Charles Blair Macdonald and shows that the incredibly studious, methodical, and pain-staking effort he took to locate, design, and create this masterpiece is largely what differentiated it from most of the one-day, professional golfer, eighteen stakes on a Sunday dreck that preceded him in this country.

He started out with the idea of replicating 18 holes from elsewhere and eventually realized that this wasn't either desirable or realistic and instead created just 18 great holes, with only a few being attempted replicas.

It's an awesome story...I'm sorry you feel he hasn't been given proper credit.

[Bill_McBride]

Geez Jim...

I've been called a lot of things but Dyspeptic is a new one.    

I do reject your categorization...I think the thread actually glorifies Charles Blair Macdonald and shows that the incredibly studious, methodical, and pain-staking effort he took to locate, design, and create this masterpiece is largely what differentiated it from most of the one-day, professional golfer, eighteen stakes on a Sunday dreck that preceded him in this country.

He started out with the idea of replicating 18 holes from elsewhere and eventually realized that this wasn't either desirable or realistic and instead created just 18 great holes, with only a few being attempted replicas.

It's an awesome story...I'm sorry you feel he hasn't been given proper credit.

Hold on now Mike, there are more than a few template holes out there, aren't there?

#2 Sahara, #3 Alps, #4 Redan, #6 Short, #7 Road, #8 Bottle, #9 Long, #13 Eden, #14 Cape, #17 Leven........that's 10/18, and I'll bet Uncle George can single out some others.  Is #18 a Littlestone?

I'm not being critical of their being "templates," I love the way he found the right landforms and topography to make it work.

"A few..." just isn't accurate.

[DMoriarty]

Bill,

It is another thread, but that determination would depend upon what one meant by "template."  If I recall correctly CBM and HJW both identified four holes which were somewhat identifiable with the originals; the Eden, the Redan, the Road, the Alps, and even these featured substantial departures from the originals.  (CBM called some of the departures improvements.)  While some (like the Leven, Sahara, and Long) borrowed concepts from specific holes abroad, these and the rest were apparently following the concepts even more loosely and/or were combinations of various holes and/or were original.  

That said many of NGLA's holes became models themselves, and their underlying concepts were repeated elsewhere by CBM and others.   I'd argue that one might even be able to trace the line of influence on some designers by looking at certain characteristics of certain holes and whether they more closely resemble CBM's versions or the "originals."  

[Bill_McBride]

So David, are you saying that the template holes that followed NGLA (at the Creek, Yale, etc etc) aren't templates, but just those at NGLA?

[DMoriarty]

Hmmmm . . .  I don't think that is what I was saying.   If anything I was leaning toward the opposite.   But maybe I am just getting hung up on the word "template."