[JNC Lyon]

WARNING: This thread includes strong language and strong opinions, both of which you may not agree with.  Reader beware!

Kevin Lynch inspired me on the Upstate New York public courses thread.  I used "abortion" to describe aspects of the 18th at Greystone outside of Rochester.  Downhill layup tee shot followed by a non-negotiatable forced carry over 125 yards of lake, which goes right up to the edge of the green.  Abortion!

What are the worst A-Bomb holes you've played?  Why?

My faves, from around the world:

15 at Oak Hill (East).  George and Tom, the moron twins, took a brilliant Ross plateau green and shifted it down the hill into a swampy wetlands area.  The hole is now 180 yards to a narrow green with bunkers left and a pond on the right.  The green is constantly sinking into the pond, meaning the green often washes out and must be rebuilt every ten years or so.  Total abortion.

8 at Addington.  On the whole, Addington is an awesome layout filled with tons of thrills.  Abercromby took a lot of chances on the routing over extreme land, and a few of them were bound not to pay off.  The 8th is the gamble that lost.  The hole is a mid-length par four with an uphill blind tee shot to a fairway that falls off into woods and ravine on both sides.  If you miss your tee shot, a 6 or 7 is all but guaranteed.  Any recovery shot from the woods will likely squirt across the fairway into the other side.  Abercromby, I'm a big fan, but this wasn't your best effort here.

Any housing development par five that boomerangs around a neighborhood.  There are too many of these to name, but they are all abortions.

[Garland Bayley]

The "signature" hole at my home course requires a little less than 100 yard water carry to the edge of the green. The tees generally have it set at about 180 yards. Many of the seniors play wedge to the rough (no fairway short of the water), wedge from the rough to the green.

I make myself immensely popular by telling people who proudly speak of it as the signature hole that it is the worst hole on the course.

[JNC Lyon]

The "signature" hole at my home course requires a little less than 100 yard water carry to the edge of the green. The tees generally have it set at about 180 yards. Many of the seniors play wedge to the rough (no fairway short of the water), wedge from the rough to the green.

I make myself immensely popular by telling people who proudly speak of it as the signature hole that it is the worst hole on the course.

Signature holes often turn out to be A-Bombs, from my experience.

[Peter_Collins]

The 18th at Flint Hills National (a Fazio course near Wichita) that has hosted a few USGA amateur championships despite being just 10-15 years old.

The 18th is a cape hole par 5 in which the lake runs down the left side.  Ten yards off the fairway right is a cart path and to the right of the cart path is unplayable but inbounds stand of trees and scrub plants.  The green lies across a pond, elevated approximately 30 feet above the fairway in a stadium style hollow.  On the tee side of the pond in the middle of the fairway in front of the green is a huge tree.  The only thing missing from this hole is Abe Lincoln's hat. 

It's too bad because Flint Hills is a wonderful place.  I know Fazio courses aren't well liked on this board, but this is a really fun golf course that can be set up for Saturday morning members' games or a USGA amateur championship.  The clubhouse and guest cottages are first class, and the service is outstanding without being stiff.

[Mark Saltzman]

A couple of doozies come to mind.

First, the 15th at National Pines (a course at which I am a member).  This is a 320 yard par-4 from the member tees.  There are two options off the tee: 1) drive straight towards the green (about 270 to front edge on straight line), which requires a forced carry of 220 yards over wetland.  This direct approach leaves the much better view of the green.  Option 2) take the 'easy' route and lay up left of the hazard. 

The problem: There is a set of tall pine trees that block the view of the green from the left route if a drive of 200+ yards is not hit.  As a result, most players end up being forced to lay up to the left on their tee-shot, then chip the ball another 50 yards further down the lay up area to get by the trees.  The higher handicap is looking at making at least 5.

Another problem: The angle of approach, even on a perfect lay up, is so poor that anything but a low single digit handicap will never be able to hold the green (and the low single digit wouldn't have laid up anyway).

Another problem: There is no bridge to the direct fairway.  Any player taking the direct route must walk around the lay-up route, then across a series of mounds to get to the direct fairway.  Trust me, its a pain.

Here is a picture of the hole.  Sorry for the poor quality, but apparently Google Earth doesn't have the capability of taking high res photos of Canada yet.

[David Kelly]

Peter,

 I agree with you that Flint Hills National is a good Fazio course and the whole place is top notch.  However, Golf Digest had it in their top 50 a few years ago, higher than Riviera (in 2009/10 FH dropped 14 spots and Riviera rose 31 spots) which was inexplicable to me.

Flint Hills National #18:

[Mark Saltzman]

David and Peter,

So does that tree to the left of the fairway make it impossible to go for the green in two?  What, if any, is the purpose of that tree?

Mark

[Kevin Lynch]

It's late and I have to get to bed, but I'll throw out the 18th at Glen Oak (RTJ Design in Amherst, NY).  If someone else is familiar with it, I'm sure you can describe the "A-Bomb" qualities.

It's a double-dogleg Par 5 that pretty much mandates at 170-210 yard tee shot to an island, followed by a completely blind layup of 150-200 yards, leaving around 100-150 yard 3rd.

Another prime candidiate was the Par 5 11th at Holiday Valley, which used to be played with Driver, 70 yard layup (I did it with putter once!), followed by flip shot over a Ravine.  Luckily, this one was completely remodeled a few years back.

I'll get some photos / hole diagrams later, but thought I'd throw them out for some of the people who may have played them.

[Matt_Ward]

Since NY State is being mentioned -- I'd have to say the concluding hole at Bethpage Black. The hole is really anticlimatic to what happens just prior -- Phil Young can say whatever he wishes -- frankly he defers too much to what was done at the Black -- the concluding hole just is a real dud -- very little imagination and one could have included a far different hole than just another long par-4 type hole. When you compromise as much as what was done with the existing 18th -- you get overkill / eye-candy bunkers that do little except impact the higher hanidcap player. A pity indeed.

[Tom_Doak]

Peter and David:

I am pretty sure that the green site for the 18th at Flint Hills National is an owner decision.  I played with the owner, Tom Devlin, last year -- he's a member of Rock Creek -- and we talked a bit about that green site, and if I remember right, he said that Tom Fazio thought it was too severe over there but he insisted on it.

I have never seen the finished course, but I could hold up my end of the conversation because I'd done a routing for a course on that same property for the previous landowner, when I worked for the Dyes.  It was a very cool piece of ground; one of these years I will have to get back and see what came of it.

[Steve Salmen]

At the risk of upsetting lots of fans, I absolutely hate the 17th at Carnoustie.  It is just too easy to hit a good tee shot that winds up in the burn; left, right, short, or long.  It's like hitting to an island fairway.  At least on the 18th, if you rip one down the middle, there is no risk of trouble.

[David Kelly]

I always wondered who would be a national member at a club in Wichita and not join Prairie Dunes but after visiting Flint Hills National I could see that golfers who want a lot of amenities and a high level of service would join.  The Lodges are very nice - not as nice as the Rock Creek Lodges -  but high end. The whole place shows that there was a lot of attention to detail. The course is not spectacular but it is pretty good.  Probably a Fazio top 5 for me.

I've only played Flint Hills #18 once and I hit good drive but the ball came to rest on the right side of the fairway and the tree was directly in my way. But even if the tree wasn't there I would have had too long of a carry to go for it.  The play for going for it in two would be to drive the ball as close to the water on the left as possible as this would cut down on the carry.  However if you are on that side and don't go for it the layup is made more difficult because you have to deal with the tree more.  Another problem is that the grove of trees on the left side of the water is also an issue for someone going for it in two. Finally, on a first play it is tough to know how far you need to hit it to get completely past the tree yet not run out of fairway.

I stole this picture from The Itinerant Golfer's website http://www.theitinerantgolfer.com and it shows you the view on 18 from the fairway. 

[Matthew Rose]

#6 at Legacy Ridge, in Denver. Art Hills.

562 yards, par 5.

Tee shot: Forced lay-up with 3-wood/hybrid to a tiny fairway with a large crescent-shaped bumpy mound of rough protruding into it. On the right, the cart path is about 5 feet off the right edge of the fairway and anything that touches it will bound into very deep grass or OB, both of which sit immediately off this cart path.

2nd shot: Unless you are in the dead center, you must hit a rope hook or a 40 yard cut slice with a middle iron over a wetlands creek and through an opening between two tall tree stands into a 15 yard wide fairway with a huge bunker pinching the fairway even smaller still at one point.

3rd shot: 9-iron/wedge to a very shallow green angled front-left to back-right with the entire left and back dropping right off into the same creek you hit over before.

Extremely awkward in every single way possible. In my fantasies I find a way to split it up into a par-3 and a par-4 and then combine the 7th and 8th into one hole.

[Sean_A]

The first hole which came to mind is the finisher at Reddish Vale.  A narrrow fairway which steep frop offs either side.  The fairways gently rises for about 200 yards and then points toward the sky for the approach just where the fairway really narrows.  A terrible hole with the only redeeming feature being it takes the golfer back to the house. 



Next up, #16 at Camberley Heath.  A Koi pond was stuck in the middle of the fairway just about where good drives finish.  Honestly, it just looks like a fishing hole on golf course.  Oddly and really off-putting (for me anyway) is the pond is on high ground.  At least we can be relieved that a really good hole wasn't detroyed.



Ciao 

[Mark Pearce]

Three on the same course, the Hunting Course at Slaley Hall.

No 8 is a sharp dog leg left to right par 4, with a slightly downhill tee shot, trees hard on the right hand side and a turning point at about 5 iron range.  The choices?  Try to push it a little off the tee and risk running through the corner into trees, hit a 5 iron or similar off the tee then a long iron or wood uphill and over a stream to the elevated green or bomb a driver over the trees on the right in the hope that you might get lucky and find your ball in the fairway.

No 13 is an uphill par 4, about 420 yards, with a large pond across the fairway.  Played by mortals by hitting a short iron short of the pond and then a long iron/wood up to the green.  I beleieve the pros may play it by driving back down the 12th fairway.

No 18 is about 430 yards, I think.  Steeply downhill tee shot, with a stream and rough short of the stream crossing the fairway on a driving length.  The play?  Long iron or utility short of the stream.  Long iron/wood (off a downhill lie, in all probability) uphill to a green that really calls for a left to right slider to hit it.

All utterly, utterly rubbish golf holes.

Fortunately my memories of Ramside Hall are sufficiently blurred that I can't even start on a list of the appalling holes there!

[Dave Givnish]

15 at Golf Club Scottsdale (Moorish) is up there for Arizona courses.

It's the start of a controversial 4-hole sequence that goes up and then back down the hillside - so it is the signature group of holes for the course.  15 is an uphill par 5 with a hard dogleg left, across a ravine, and up to a tiered, turtle back, plateau green.  The driving landing area is protected by deep fairway bunkers that give you little option other than to pitch out to the side.  The second and third shots are up a steep grade to a plateau green.  The grade is so steep enough that you can only see the flag (not the stick) in most cases.  From 100 yards in the fairway, the green is still 50' above you. 

[Travis Dewire]

I really disliked the 18th hole at Eastward Ho!

Had to put a nice draw on a hybrid, leaving about 230 over a large dip in the fairway that rises back to the green sit sitting atop of a hill (My tee ball hung straight and into the rough. Impossible shot out of rough to the green). So you have a crazy long forced carry. The dilema here being, the overgrown trees up the left that force a strong draw off the tee. Problem number 2 being the range straight ahead, and creeping up the right hand side. So you can't hit a driver or you put it in the range, unless you really snap a hook, which would only be your 5 wood anyways. Seemed very, very quirky after 17 strong holes before it. And yes I played this hole as should be played, I was on that day - 6 birdies and a few bogies untill the big number on the A-Bomb hole.

the other hole I am surprised no one mentions is the 17th at sawgrass. Never seen a bigger a-bomb hole in my life. No bail out unless you find the walking strip to the green. Such a Joke

[archie_struthers]

A couple come to mind at the Jersey Shore is the 9th at Shore Gate ,  a really strange five par that makes you hit away from the green on your second shot .

The other obvious selection here is the 6th at Stone Harbor , a fairly long par four which is just way too hard for anyone but the expert golfer.  Water left , right  and center and if you happen to hit it too good the fairway runs into a lake.  I enjoy Stone Harbor as we have some great shoot outs there but it is wacky ...lol

[Carl Johnson]

My nomination is No. 14, a par five, at Crowders Mountain Golf Club (public) near Charlotte.  Up hill blind off the tee with a pond awaiting if you hit it too far.  Then over the pond to a "fairway" that slopes dramatically down right to left, and then if you find the fairway, blind up hill to a tiny green.  Advertized as the "hardest par five" in the world, which it could well be, since there is no good way to play it.  Check out link: http://www.golfholes.com/nc/_crowdersmountain/hole14.htm

[Kevin Lynch]

Another prime candidiate was the Par 5 11th at Holiday Valley, which used to be played with Driver, 70 yard layup (I did it with putter once!), followed by flip shot over a Ravine.  Luckily, this one was completely remodeled a few years back.

I'll get some photos / hole diagrams later, but thought I'd throw them out for some of the people who may have played them.

Here's Holiday Valley's 11th.  These images are AFTER the Re-design, but should illustrate what an "A-Bomb" the hole was before.

Here's the overall hole, with the Old Tree Line in RED:




Here's a current picture to show the drop off the ravine to the green:



The hole is currently a 350 yard Par 4.  With a drive of 180 yards, you get past the trees on the left, and then have a shot over the ravine to the green below.  The further your drive, the better your angle and less carry.

Now, imagine the tree-line extending another 100+ yards down the left and filling the Ravine except at a 90 degree angle at the end of the fairway.  If the photo had been taken 5 years ago, you would have seen nothing but a wall of trees.

For decades, this played as a 379 yard Par 5.   As you can tell from the drawing, it is a very narrow landing area, with OB right and Ravine left.  So, if you had the ability to hit a frozen rope 290-310 down the middle, you had a flip wedge over the ravine at a 90 degree angle to set up an eagle putt.  if you hit it only 270, the trees on the left blocked you out, and you would hit putter / chipper another 30 yards to set up your approach in regulation.

It could be even worse was if you played smart (say, 4 iron off tee). You still had to be pretty precise on your second to find the "window" at the end of the fairway with your second (e.g. needed to hit exactly between 95 and 115 yards).  If you hit a little heavy and landed 90 yards, time to get out your putter to set up your 4th shot.

Luckily, this was an "A-Bomb" that was saved through a re-design several years ago.  It's still a pretty frightening hole because of the Ravine and OB off the tee, but it is light years ahead of the previous incarnation.

[Kevin Lynch]

It's late and I have to get to bed, but I'll throw out the 18th at Glen Oak (RTJ Design in Amherst, NY).  If someone else is familiar with it, I'm sure you can describe the "A-Bomb" qualities.

It's a double-dogleg Par 5 that pretty much mandates at 170-210 yard tee shot to an island, followed by a completely blind layup of 150-200 yards, leaving around 100-150 yard 3rd.

Here's the 18th at Glen Oak.  Compared to the 379 Yard Par 5 I just posted, I suppose this one pales in comparison.





From the "chucked back" tees, it's 543 yards, but from the "Blues" it's a 475 yard 3 shotter (unless you can hit precise hook 280 yards from the tee over trees and water, or feel comfortable hitting a blind 245 yard 3-wood over a pond).

Once on the first island, you're hitting blind over a rise for a lay-up that you hope doesn't:
A)  Go in fairway bunkers left, or
B)  Splash in Pond Right

But since you have ZERO visual clues where the hole goes (e.g. no trees on far side of fairway in landing area), you usually make sure you lay-up short enough to avoid any potential of water or sand.

The end result from the Blues is usually 4 iron, 6 iron, 9 iron to complete a "signature" hole that you never even see (but the pond makes a nice photo from behind the green).

[Greg Chambers]

#6 at Legacy Ridge, in Denver. Art Hills.

562 yards, par 5.

Tee shot: Forced lay-up with 3-wood/hybrid to a tiny fairway with a large crescent-shaped bumpy mound of rough protruding into it. On the right, the cart path is about 5 feet off the right edge of the fairway and anything that touches it will bound into very deep grass or OB, both of which sit immediately off this cart path.

2nd shot: Unless you are in the dead center, you must hit a rope hook or a 40 yard cut slice with a middle iron over a wetlands creek and through an opening between two tall tree stands into a 15 yard wide fairway with a huge bunker pinching the fairway even smaller still at one point.

3rd shot: 9-iron/wedge to a very shallow green angled front-left to back-right with the entire left and back dropping right off into the same creek you hit over before.

Extremely awkward in every single way possible. In my fantasies I find a way to split it up into a par-3 and a par-4 and then combine the 7th and 8th into one hole.

You could add holes 1-5 and holes 7-18 to the list and you wouldn't get much argument from me.

[Matthew Rose]

#6 at Legacy Ridge, in Denver. Art Hills.

You could add holes 1-5 and holes 7-18 to the list and you wouldn't get much argument from me.

Yeah, the whole thing is pretty much a debacle. Unfortunately I end up playing it a lot because my folks live on it.

[Ronald Montesano]

Lots of Roger Rulewich holes in lots of places, something he learned from RTJ, Sr., who put lots of wall-to-wall cisterns on lots of courses.

[John Foley]

Another prime candidiate was the Par 5 11th at Holiday Valley, which used to be played with Driver, 70 yard layup (I did it with putter once!), followed by flip shot over a Ravine.  Luckily, this one was completely remodeled a few years back.

I'll get some photos / hole diagrams later, but thought I'd throw them out for some of the people who may have played them.

Here's Holiday Valley's 11th.  These images are AFTER the Re-design, but should illustrate what an "A-Bomb" the hole was before.

Here's the overall hole, with the Old Tree Line in RED:




Here's a current picture to show the drop off the ravine to the green:



The hole is currently a 350 yard Par 4.  With a drive of 180 yards, you get past the trees on the left, and then have a shot over the ravine to the green below.  The further your drive, the better your angle and less carry.

Now, imagine the tree-line extending another 100+ yards down the left and filling the Ravine except at a 90 degree angle at the end of the fairway.  If the photo had been taken 5 years ago, you would have seen nothing but a wall of trees.

For decades, this played as a 379 yard Par 5.   As you can tell from the drawing, it is a very narrow landing area, with OB right and Ravine left.  So, if you had the ability to hit a frozen rope 290-310 down the middle, you had a flip wedge over the ravine at a 90 degree angle to set up an eagle putt.  if you hit it only 270, the trees on the left blocked you out, and you would hit putter / chipper another 30 yards to set up your approach in regulation.

It could be even worse was if you played smart (say, 4 iron off tee). You still had to be pretty precise on your second to find the "window" at the end of the fairway with your second (e.g. needed to hit exactly between 95 and 115 yards).  If you hit a little heavy and landed 90 yards, time to get out your putter to set up your 4th shot.

Luckily, this was an "A-Bomb" that was saved through a re-design several years ago.  It's still a pretty frightening hole because of the Ravine and OB off the tee, but it is light years ahead of the previous incarnation.

Kevin - That was, before the re-design, the WORST golf hole I had ever played in my life by a MILE.

Have not played the new one, but it has to be an improvement!

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