[Jerry Kluger]

I was wondering if there are instances where a poor or average golf course became a really great course as a result of a major renovation?  I can think of some renovations that made a course good better but how about a mediocre course that became really good. 

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jerry,

I think the California Golf Club qualifies. Prior to the recent renovation, it probably fit the "average" category. The course pretty incredible now.

(I have a project I'm working on at the moment where I think we can turn a "poor" course into a "really good" one... as long as I can get the ownership to buy into the idea, and spend the require money! We'll see...)

[Garland Bayley]

How about Atlantic City Country Club? Anybody seen it before and after?

[Phil_the_Author]

How about one that created TWO great courses? Baltusrol.

Tilly took a course that had already had hosted several national championships, ripped it to pieces and designed two new ones in its place, both of which are greater than the one before and have each hosted numerous national championships and do so down till today and with more already scheduled...

[Brad Klein]

Monterey Peninsula CC - Shore Course under Mike Strantz did the biggest turn around (literally) in the modern era.

Eugene CC with RTJ's reversal of the routing achieved a similar leap in quality

[Patrick_Mucci]

How about Atlantic City Country Club? Anybody seen it before and after?

Garland, it was a good course before and after.

[Tom_Doak]

I would second the Cal Club and Monterey Peninsula CC, neither of which were all that exciting "before".

Atlantic City CC was better than those two "before", so I don't think the improvement is nearly as dramatic.  And I wouldn't rate it as highly now as those other two.  But, it's way better than Eugene CC, which is one of the most overrated courses I've seen.

Y'all are just not thinking back far enough.  Royal Melbourne is a redesign ... and an unbelievable one.  Muirfield is 100% better today than it was in 1919.  Lahinch -- by MacKenzie's redesign.  But, all of those were pretty basic courses at one point, that hadn't had a lot of money or a lot of architectural thought put into them until Colt or MacKenzie came along.  It ought to be harder to improve a course that much today, because in theory, most of them have been able to afford decent architectural input before.

[Jerry Kluger]

I may not say great but certainly really good is how I would describe what TD did at CommonGround.  A very ordinary course on a very ordinary piece of property and turned it into a fun, challenging and interesting test of golf.  This type of work could be performed at so many courses and dramatically improve the golf experience for the vast majority of players.

[BCrosby]

The best example is the widening of the outward holes at TOC circa 1870 and then follow-on bunker additions starting about 1900 through 1905 or so.

John Low's and Stuart Paton's changes to Woking starting about 1900.

Colt's changes to Sunningdale, Hoylake and Muirfield. There are any number of other examples of changes in UK courses that were critical to the reputations the courses now enjoy.

Bob

[GBoring]

Considering we are about to embark on a major renovation this summer I would hope to add us to that list.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I would second the Cal Club and Monterey Peninsula CC, neither of which were all that exciting "before".

Atlantic City CC was better than those two "before", so I don't think the improvement is nearly as dramatic.  And I wouldn't rate it as highly now as those other two.  But, it's way better than Eugene CC, which is one of the most overrated courses I've seen.

Y'all are just not thinking back far enough.  Royal Melbourne is a redesign ... and an unbelievable one.  Muirfield is 100% better today than it was in 1919.  Lahinch -- by MacKenzie's redesign.  But, all of those were pretty basic courses at one point, that hadn't had a lot of money or a lot of architectural thought put into them until Colt or MacKenzie came along.  It ought to be harder to improve a course that much today, because in theory, most of them have been able to afford decent architectural input before.

Garden City.

[Keith Doleshel]

Greg,
What kind of improvements/modifications are you guys doing to your club?

[GBoring]

Keith,

The primary scope of work this summer is a rebuild of the bunkers and we are planning to expand on Walter Travis's fairway lines that wrap around our green complexes.  We have removed more trees and we are currenly incorporating more Native Grass areas throughout the course. 

[Jerry Kluger]

Hey Tom - what's this y'all stuff - did you move to southern Michigan? 

[Mike_Trenham]

White Mannor Country Club is a very good example of a complete gut job that came out a number of notches above its prior status.

Originally a Gordon design redone by Bobby Weed about 6 years ago.  Routing is generally the same but everything else is new.  I was surprised this did not break into the next group of modern courses on Golfweek's recent list.

[Tom_Doak]

Hey Tom - what's this y'all stuff - did you move to southern Michigan? 

Jerry:

Too much time in central Florida in the past year, hanging out with Jimbo and the rest of Bill Coore's crew. 

[Greg Holland]

Hey Tom - what's this y'all stuff - did you move to southern Michigan? 

Jerry:

Too much time in central Florida in the past year, hanging out with Jimbo and the rest of Bill Coore's crew. 

Not to get provincial or anything, but you have to admit "ya'll" is way better than "you guys."

[Carl Nichols]

Hey Tom - what's this y'all stuff - did you move to southern Michigan? 

Jerry:

Too much time in central Florida in the past year, hanging out with Jimbo and the rest of Bill Coore's crew. 

Not to get provincial or anything, but you have to admit "ya'll" is way better than "you guys."

Don't you mean "youse guys"?

[Robert Thompson]

Greg: I played your course five or six years ago -- after the trees had been removed, and thought Ian had done a fine job "restoring" the course. Hard to imagine why it would now need a renovation. It was good before -- I wouldn't have done much to it....

Considering we are about to embark on a major renovation this summer I would hope to add us to that list.

[James Bennett]

A couple of melbourne suggestions, judging from heresay only.  I haven't seen either or played either.

Tony Cashmore's work at 'The Dunes' on the Mornington Peninsula near Melbourne gets great reviews, but was from some sort ofcourse initially (I don't know the details here).

Mike Clayton (and Michael Cocking) and the work at RACV Healesville outside of Melbourne.  Something very forgettable (judging by quotes in Matt Mollica'sand Michael Cocking's thread on Healesville) was converted to something quite memorable with a couple of routing amendments, elimination of the worst and a rebuild of all greens, tees and bunkers.

Perhaps someone from melbourne could add to this thin bit of information.

James B

[Sean_A]

Tom

These things can be very hard to know when we dip way back in time. These days there seems to be an appreciation for some of the very old style architecture that was deemed poor by the likes of Colt and Co.  I am particularly interested in Sunny Old and wonder if that was really improved or just "modernized" as is the case with so many so called renovations.  

Anyway, here are a few which I suspect were improved by quite a margin.

Braid @ St Enodoc
Steel @ Enniscrone
Fowler @ Westward Ho! (but I think this course could be drastically improved - so not a great course)
Williamson @ Notts
Simpson @ New Zealand (not a  great course, but I suspect that if Simpson were given a free and expensive hand it would have been)

Ciao

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

But isn't the topic of this thread "major renovations"? Many of the clubs lists thus far were more than just renovated, they were totally re-designed in some cases.

I know, I know, the old chesnut of when does a major renovation = re-design and vice versa.

Maybe the title of the topic should be changed to "Major re-designs that created a great course".

If we include re-designs, what about Colt at RCD, Mackenzie Ross at Turnberry (or was that a totally new course built from scratch after WWII)?

I believe Portsalon jumped up a good few notches in stature after Ruddy's re-design.

[Jerry Kluger]

Donal:  I was thinking of renovations as opposed to restoring a course back to its original greatness.  Looking for courses that originally were not great but were dramatically improved by renovation.

Jerry

[GBoring]

Robert,

The majority of the work that is going to take place is the bunkers.  Our bunkers are nearly 50 years old and have lost their shape and character.  They have also been contaminated with rock and soil.  We are going to continue to expand the fairway lines around the greens.  We have continued to be fairly aggressive with the tree management program since the last time you were here.

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