[John Blain]

John F:

Yes, I have and I have already alluded to it as an exception to my overall comments.

But, let's not get carried away and say it's a must play item for those coming from different parts of the
country. That can be said for a few of the privates in the area -- most notably, Olde Kinderhook which is
totally forgotten by many.

In regards to The Sagamore -- nicely done layout but not within the price point JNC spelled out initially.

Olde Kinderhook needs to be forgotten. You honestly like that place? I played in a U.S. Mid Am qualifier there a few years back and wasn't real impressed. Very difficult, very hard to walk, no clubhouse. I have played it twice - first and last.

[Matt_Ward]

JPBlain:

Different strokes for different folks.

What does having a clubhouse have to do with the architecture? Difficult to walk? Bethpage Black is tougher than OK.

Regarding demands -- sure it provides that -- but they were having a qualifier for a national amateur event -- right ?

Maybe what you shot is an indicator of why you don't like it ?

Believe it or not -- that happens for plenty of people.

I've played it twice and thought it was outstanding -- so have others -- including plenty of key posters on this site.

[John Blain]

Matt-

What I shot (76) has nothing to do with how I feel about a club or a course. I have qualified for both the US Amateur and Mid Am so believe it or not I know better. I am basing it on the fact there were 33 players attempting to quallify, the average round was almost six hours and I remember the course was very difficult to walk. Just not my cup of tea but that is just my opinion.

If the place is so great why do they only have 65 or so members when they would like to have 200? Please don't tell me the economy because no one wanted to join there even when times were good.

Now Crag Burn?  I think that place is terrific.

[Kevin Lynch]

Here's Golf Magazine's "Answer Key" for reference, in case anyone is curious (I haven't edited out according to JNC's criteria).

WARNING:  Jay Flemma should not read this!  The density of courses from Turning Stone near the top may cause him to blow a gasket!  (Jay, that's not meant to be a dig - I just know your feelings.  Years ago, I thought you may have been a bit harsh on Atunyote, but I really can't argue too much with your "formulaic" criticisms.)

1. Bethpage (Black), Farmingdale
2. Atunyote at Turning Stone, Verona
3. Shenandoah at Turning Stone, Verona
4. Bethpage (Red), Farmingdale
5. Kaluhyat at Turning Stone, Verona
6. Montauk Downs, Montauk
7. Hiawatha Landing, Apalachin
8. Saratoga National, Saratoga Springs
9. Leatherstocking, Cooperstown
10. Branton Woods, Hopewell Junction
11. The Sagamore, Bolton Landing
12. Conklin Players Club, Conklin
13. Ravenwood, Victor
14. Seven Oaks at Colgate, Hamilton
15. Greystone, Walworth
16. Mansion Ridge, Monroe
17. Links at Union Vale, LaGrangeville
18. Grossinger (Big G), Liberty
19. Lake Placid (Links), Lake Placid
20. Long Island National, Riverhead

[JNC Lyon]

Kaluhyat ahead of Leatherstocking?  That's rich...

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin:

The Golf Mag is way off base.

The TS courses are simply mindless boring golf -- plenty of length but for the most part the overall terrain there is quite pedestran. Hard to believe that much $$ can be poured in and so little can come out of it.

Another clear omission -- Tallgrass is easily among the best 20 -- have to say that Links at Unionvale should be higher. Hard for me to fathom why a place like Mansion Ridge doesn't get some love. I also credit TF for his masterful job in routing a tough small property like Oyster Bay in Woodbury.

In regards to Montauk Downs it COULD be the 2nd best in NY State -- but I have yet to see turf conditions that merit such stature. They can also cut the grass more frequently to get fairways with some movement in them.

JPBlain:

Maybe the folks playing in the qualifier -- need to play the 6,600 yard variety layouts.

The reason for the lack of members is tied to the desire of the owner (Japanese if I recall) to be especially picky about who can join. That's his prerogative. Has been that way from the get go -- also the greater Albany area doesn't have the kind of disposable cash as other pockets of NY.

Do yourself a huge favor and check out past comments - more than mine -- concerning Olde Kinderhook -- I guess they're all wet too in regards to their assessment of what it provides.

Remember you raised the clubhouse issue -- has nothing to do with the design -- in regards to walking -- I answered you -- Bethpage Black is far more demanding. If OK gets thrown under the bus under your reasoning -- then BB gets the same treatment.

At least we agree on Crag Burn. If you have specific hole critiques on OK more than happy to discuss.

[Kevin Lynch]

John F, Jay,

Greystone and Hiawatha share two major problems: a lack of good short fours and awkward par five holes.  There are no good short par fours at Hiawatha, and only the 10th at Greystone is really compelling.  The par fives at Greystone are long slogs.  The 9th hole is a very strange par five because of the trees on the left off the tee.  Additionally, Greystone's 18th is an abortion from tee to green, although the green complex is interesting.

I haven't been to Hiawatha, but I've really only heard lukewarm reviews from people I know that have played it.

Regarding Greystone, I have to concur with some of what JNC says.  I initially felt Greystone was better than Ravenwood, but I think that was because I discovered Greystone at a much younger and inexperienced age.  The criticism about the Par 5s is valid (I find nothing appealing at all about #9).  It’s especially so on the Championship tees, which just seemed to be chucked back 50 yards in each case (seemed so one-dimensionally obsessed with length rather than maintaining any strategic characteristics of the holes).

And I thought I had strong negative feelings about #18…. JNC dropped the “A-Bomb” on that one!  

Perhaps that may spawn a separate thread ... "A-Bomb Holes of the Upstate NY Region."

[Kevin Lynch]

John F., I think we'll have to agree to disagree about the 2nd at Ravenwood.  It is possibly my favorite hole at Ravenwood.  The green gives the golfer an opportunity to bail out into the swale in front of the green or play aggressively at the top tier with some risk.  The second shot also has plenty of ground options if you play your tee shot to the high left side of the fairway.  The hole is maddening for good players and very reasonable for the lesser golfer.  It is one of three very interesting short fours at Ravenwood.  These short fours set it apart from some of the other publics in the area.

If you need a tie-breaker on this one, I have to go with JNC's preference.  I always thought this was a pretty nice hole, but we can certainly agree to disagree on that one.

For the length of Ravenwood from the Tips (7,100), you still have 3 sub-350 yard Par 4s, and the course doesn't force you to hit only hybrids and up into the Par 3s.

[JNC Lyon]

I said I liked the green on 18 at Greystone!  I like that concept though: "Worst A-Bomb Holes You've Played."

I agree with Matt, that list is total garbage.

Ravenwood is all about variety for me.  From any set of tees, the courses mixes long and short, as well as aerial and ground, on the threes, fours, and fives.

[John Foley]

Kevin & JNC,

Ravenwood vs Greystone...

From a view of variety & quality of the putting surfaces, Greystone is head and shoulders above Ravenwood.

At Greystone you have:
awesome at 1, 2, 6, 9, 10, 13, 14, 17 18
very good at 4, 5, 7, 8, 12, 15, 16
average / nothing special at 3, 11

At Ravenwood you have:
awesome at 9
very good at 3, 10, 13, 17, 18
average / nothing special at 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16
stinker at 2

It's not a knock as Ravenwood which has alot going for it, its just the greens are soo much better at Greystone.

[JNC Lyon]

Any feeling that the two-tiered greens get repetitive at Greystone.  I agree some of those greens are cool, but they seem to be the same design over and over.  The greens at Ravenwood are more subtle (while being wild in spots) and more diverse throughout.  I prefer the greens at Greystone, but only just.

[Kevin Lynch]

John / JNC,

I think I would agree that Greystone has the better greens vs. Ravenwood, but I'm more biased towards the tee-to-green game, so it doesn't carry as much weight for me.  As a result of this and the fact that I live in Buffalo vs. Rochester, I probably don't have the same level of recall that you two have.  Ravenwood is definitely more subtle, and Greystone sometimes just bashes you over the head with easy 3-putt opportunities.

Honestly, I think it would be great to play them both again to refresh my memory (it's been over 3 years in both cases), especially with a better idea of the things to look for (thanks to GC Atlas)!

[Matt_Ward]

It's interesting to wonder how the raters for such a top mag like Golf Mag can be SO OFF in their NY public layout ratings.

I agree that other places -- Greystone and Ravenwood both offer a good bit more than those ratings would suggest. But I have tosay that far too often the big ticket resorts often get more fanfare and the placement of such courses in the NY listing is not the only state that suffers because of it.

Best bet would be that only those who reside in a given state should do the state ratings. They get to see and play all the top candidates far more often and likely aren't swayed by the big time mktg efforts.

[JNC Lyon]

Matt,

I know plenty of people in our area who are swayed by marketing efforts of places like Turning Stone.  Upstate New York is not exactly a font of architectural enlightenment, and some of these modern courses at Turning Stone and elsewhere reflect that.  Ultimately, Turning Stone can post the stimpmeter reading for the day outside the pro shop (which they do), and people will be impressed.  I think folks on this board from the region will agree with you and say the Turning Stone courses are garbage.  As for others, I'm not so sure.

Again, the Kaluhyat listing makes zero sense to me, especially ahead of places like Leatherstocking, Thendara, Mark Twain, Ravenwood, Greystone, Mill Creek, Deerfield, and Seven Oaks, all of which I would play ahead of Kaluhyat anytime, regardless of what the greens are stimping.

[David Harshbarger]

I played Ballston Spa once in a scramble.  I had no vocabulary for it, other than old style and lots of uncomfortable decisions.  I think means it is worth a visit!

Does anyone here have an opinion on Western Turnpike?  I played it in a league for a few years, and there are many holes on which the path is not at all clear.

[John Foley]

Guys,

Turning Stone does a very good job marketing their resort as a destination. The courses there are not as good as GW's listing has them, but they are not the dogs that many make them out to be. Are they worth the price they ask? No not a chance. You can get some deals, play off seasons and you can find a deal. Ever since I played my first round at Leatherstocking, I haven't been at Turning Stone.

 Shenandoaha is a solid course, Kaluhyat is a brute that does nothing for me,and Atunyote is a nice experience, pretty course, but it's a snoozer.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

I never said the courses at TS were "dogs" -- just that they were not top five for sure. There are elements present there but does one make a special visit for the golf dimension. Not in my mind  they do. In regards to the casino and amenities it's very good though.

[Kevin Lynch]

Guys,

Turning Stone does a very good job marketing their resort as a destination. The courses there are not as good as GW's listing has them, but they are not the dogs that many make them out to be. Are they worth the price they ask? No not a chance. You can get some deals, play off seasons and you can find a deal. Ever since I played my first round at Leatherstocking, I haven't been at Turning Stone.

 Shenandoaha is a solid course, Kaluhyat is a brute that does nothing for me,and Atunyote is a nice experience, pretty course, but it's a snoozer.

+1

I'm not going to actively avoid these courses (well, maybe Kaluhyat, unless my game is in a very controlled state).  Like JNC said, the people on GCA are not the "average" golfer in terms of expectations for a design.  Atunyote can deliver satisfaction to 80% of the golfing population.  I haven't played Shenandoah yet, but I've generally heard it's the most solid of the 3.

I'm really not sure who was being targeted for Kaluhyat, because that one is a brute.  I was playing decently and managed 3 birdies from the tips, but between all the inevitable doubles laying out there, the score ended up being forgettable.

Ron & I were amazed by the difference in RTJ Jr's designs at Kaluhyat and his more recent offering at Hickory Stick in Lewiston.

[Dan Boerger]

Although I grew up in Utica, I didn't play a lot of golf during that time. My parents belonged to the Skenandoa club in Clinton, so I did hack around there as a youth, but was more interested in baseball. (OK, and girls.) Some comments:

Leatherstocking top public course I've played followed closely by Seven Oaks. (We always just called Leatherstocking "Otesaga", perhaps I'm showing my age or some local, now outdated usage.)

I still play Thendara every year (I vacation in Old Forge area) and love the course, but I would almost consider it two courses since the front and back nine are so decidedly different.

Another public course I enjoy -- but to be sure it has some crazy holes - is Newport. Great price/value relationship IMO.

Teugega could use some more chainsaws (perhaps they've done some tree removal since I've been there).

Yahnundasis -- while private -- has some really great holes and I always look forward to playing there. Access shouldn't be too difficult for most readers of this forum.

Turning Stone certainly has a place in that it gets a good and regular feed from the casino crowd, is well maintained, so when you show up you are assured of decent greens and fairways, and while hardly "nuanced" in design, it's a fair and strong test of golf for most.

[Kevin Lynch]

Thendara is my Adirondacks layout.  It is a ton of fun, and I would like to play other courses in that area.


Definitely play Thendara, Mark Twain, or Ravenwood if you get a chance.  Each is good for different reasons.  I'd play Thendara first, mainly because it features nine Ross holes with some outrageous greens and nine holes through the Adirondack woodlands.  It was only $23 when I played there in the fall.  Why does Thendara not get more attention? I'm not sure.

I didn't make the connection until last night that William Harries did the 9 opposite Ross.  I haven't been there, but now I'm curious.  What can you tell me about the Harries 9? 

From Harries' prolific Buffalo portfolio, he usually did a decent job in terms of intimate routings and utilizing the natural slopes of a given piece of land (although that didn't help the likes of Westwood, Audobon or Brighton in the flatter Northtowns of WNY).

He often created a nice mix of holes, with Par 3s that challenged everything from short irons through fairway woods, Par 5s that were both reachable and 3-shotters, and Par 4s in great variety.  It was just his greens that seemed so uninspired (whether through financial restriction or lack of creativity).

Does this describe his 9 at Thendara?  I'm assuming he had some slopes to work with, so you may have been pleased by his tee-to-green work.

[Kevin Lynch]

It's interesting to wonder how the raters for such a top mag like Golf Mag can be SO OFF in their NY public layout ratings.

I agree that other places -- Greystone and Ravenwood both offer a good bit more than those ratings would suggest. But I have tosay that far too often the big ticket resorts often get more fanfare and the placement of such courses in the NY listing is not the only state that suffers because of it.

Best bet would be that only those who reside in a given state should do the state ratings. They get to see and play all the top candidates far more often and likely aren't swayed by the big time mktg efforts.

+1

Ultimately, your last paragraph is the type of thing that must drive all architects nuts.  It's not so much that the people have to live locally, but multiple plays is the only way to get a meaningful ranking. 

All this rating exercise is proving to me is how many things I must have missed or not fully considered during a number of one-off or two-off visits.  I'm sure experienced raters like yourself will be much better at that, but I'm willing to bet you highly value a second look to confirm your initial impressions.

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin:

Getting a second or third look never hurts -- but generally first impressions are lasting ones. It also helps if state ratings were done exclusively or weighted more so towards those who live in the state. This would give added emphasis to those who play the courses in a state because they have seen / played them that many more times and are less suspectible to the spike that comes from a one time play.

Have to say this -- for a state like The Empire to have such stellar private clubs (in my mind, the best in the nation) -- the depth of public ones is quite pathetic given its long golf history and the fact that the state is the 3rd most populated. No doubt there are fine public courses but when held against the national leaders NY is really down the pecking order for consistent top tier public courses. A state like Colorado is miles beyond NY in that regard.

[Dan Boerger]

Kevin - I suspect JNC will have deeper insights, but I will say this about the back 9 at Thendara:

No long par 3 (that's that 9th hole, Ross design, with one of the nuttiest greens I've played)

Very nice mix of par 4's (11 and 13 stand out for me)

Very narrow playing corridors ... not sure how much of this is/was by design, or the result of the Adirondack Park Agency (notorious about tree removal).

Greens on back are relatively flat and benign.

[JNC Lyon]

Thendara is my Adirondacks layout.  It is a ton of fun, and I would like to play other courses in that area.


Definitely play Thendara, Mark Twain, or Ravenwood if you get a chance.  Each is good for different reasons.  I'd play Thendara first, mainly because it features nine Ross holes with some outrageous greens and nine holes through the Adirondack woodlands.  It was only $23 when I played there in the fall.  Why does Thendara not get more attention? I'm not sure.

I didn't make the connection until last night that William Harries did the 9 opposite Ross.  I haven't been there, but now I'm curious.  What can you tell me about the Harries 9? 

From Harries' prolific Buffalo portfolio, he usually did a decent job in terms of intimate routings and utilizing the natural slopes of a given piece of land (although that didn't help the likes of Westwood, Audobon or Brighton in the flatter Northtowns of WNY).

He often created a nice mix of holes, with Par 3s that challenged everything from short irons through fairway woods, Par 5s that were both reachable and 3-shotters, and Par 4s in great variety.  It was just his greens that seemed so uninspired (whether through financial restriction or lack of creativity).

Does this describe his 9 at Thendara?  I'm assuming he had some slopes to work with, so you may have been pleased by his tee-to-green work.

Kevin,

I'm not sure that Harries did the work on the back nine.  We discussed a little bit of the architectural history in a previous thread, and Harries' name never came up.  The back nine at Thendara is weaker, than the front, no doubt.  However, there is plenty out there that makes it a lot of fun.  I really enjoyed the 10th, which is a roller-coaster short par five to a neat plateau green.  The 11th is tight but the golfer gains an advantage by placing his drive along the Moose River.  13-15 all have interesting terrain, as does the down-and-up 18th.  The greens are the weakness on the back nine, as many are flat and very different from those on the front nine.  However, the great terrain combined with the peaceful (and not too claustrophobic) woodland setting make for an interesting nine.

I had no problem with the Jekyll and Hyde configuration at Thendara, mainly because I felt there was something holding the two nines together.  What that is, I'm not exactly sure.  The back nine definitely uses the land well, which keeps it from being a dud.

[Kevin Lynch]

Kevin,

I'm not sure that Harries did the work on the back nine.  We discussed a little bit of the architectural history in a previous thread, and Harries' name never came up.  The back nine at Thendara is weaker, than the front, no doubt.  However, there is plenty out there that makes it a lot of fun.  I really enjoyed the 10th, which is a roller-coaster short par five to a neat plateau green.  The 11th is tight but the golfer gains an advantage by placing his drive along the Moose River.  13-15 all have interesting terrain, as does the down-and-up 18th.  The greens are the weakness on the back nine, as many are flat and very different from those on the front nine.  However, the great terrain combined with the peaceful (and not too claustrophobic) woodland setting make for an interesting nine.

I had no problem with the Jekyll and Hyde configuration at Thendara, mainly because I felt there was something holding the two nines together.  What that is, I'm not exactly sure.  The back nine definitely uses the land well, which keeps it from being a dud.

That sounds exactly like a William Harries design. 

Cornish & Whitten have Harries listed as designing 9 at Thendara.  Also, I think Harries' role was confirmed in an old thread I read last night:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30702.msg796201.html#msg796201

In Reply #19, Scott Witter had the following:

Ed:

I have a few conversations with the super at Thendara re: your questions.  He said they have dwgs that clearly indicate Harries designed 9 and Ross the other 9.  I have been there several times and it couldn't be more obvious.

Scott's the WNY architect who did Arrowhead and Ironwood, and has done some restoration work in the Rochester area - he's pretty familiar with the Harries "look."

Harries also worked with Russell Tryon on the Byrncliff course we've talked about.  They definitely take advantage of the sloping land on that course, so I think you'll enjoy it.  The greens there are a complete mystery to me.  On one hole, you'll have an incredible triple plateau, and the next you'll see a benign oval.  It won't win many awards, but you will have a fun time for sure.

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