[JNC Lyon]

Here are my five favorite public courses in Upstate New York.  The three criteria are:

1) The course cannot be south of Elmira.
2) The course must be under $100 at some point in the peak season.  Frankly, any public course that charges over $100 in this region is either grossly overpriced or the next Pine Valley.
3) I must have played the golf course.  I have not played Arrowhead, Links at Ivy Ridge, Cornell, etc.

THE LIST:

1) Leatherstocking
2) Thendara
3) Mark Twain
4) Ravenwood
5) Seven Oaks

[Carl Nichols]

JNC:
Have you played any courses in the Adirondacks? 

[michael damico]

Ravenwood south of Rochester is nice.

Haven't played the new Mill Creek, but have heard some decent things about it.

I have always heard of Farview in Avon as a quirky ~6100 yard walk, but haven't been home long enough to catch it.

Grew up playing Durand Eastman Park (one of Trent Jones Sr.'s first courses - 5th or so to be more exact) and worked maintenance there; the now back nine (old out nine) is well routed and has the potential of being the most underrated nine hole sequence in Western/Upstate NY.

[Brad Tufts]

Hey JNC...it's been a while.

Nice list...I haven't yet had the pleasure of Thendara, Mark Twain, or Ravenwood as of yet, although I pass through at least once a year.  I wouldn't say Cornell is public-access, as you have to be affiliated (my brother can take care of that if you like, he's a student for two more months).  I assume "no south of Elmira" means no Links at Hiawatha?

I've also been interested for a while in the Lake Placid area courses...I don't feel as though anyone has done a primer on those on GCA...I can vouch for the Sagamore being pretty fun.

[JNC Lyon]

Carl,

Thendara is my Adirondacks layout.  It is a ton of fun, and I would like to play other courses in that area.

Michael,

Mill Creek has some excellent holes, but it plays off the top of a drumlin and has some strange holes because of that.  Holes 1, 9, 10, 11, and 18 are all awkward because of the drumlin.  It is quirky, but it is worth playing nevertheless. 

I really enjoy Durand Eastman.  I played there a bunch of times in high school matches and Rochester junior tournaments.  That back nine (originally the front nine) is very cool, but it has been altered.  The par five 13th is a combination of two holes, a short par three and a short par four, that the club plowed under.  There is an old photo out there of the original short fourth hole that shows some very dramatic bunkering from Trent Jones.  Of course, all the bunkers are gone now, and as of late the course has been in poor condition.  Durand is a neat layout, but it could be so much more.

Far View is a very quirky, "home-grown" layout that is a lot of fun.  It is also open early in the season, so check it out if you get a chance.

Are you still living in Rochester?

Brad,

I've played Links at Hiawatha, and I think it fits the criteria.  However, I don't see it as being as interesting courses like Mark Twain or Seven Oaks, mainly because of the greens.  There are some very cool holes out there (10, 11, 15, and 16 are all great fun), but I did not like as much as some others in the region.

Definitely play Thendara, Mark Twain, or Ravenwood if you get a chance.  Each is good for different reasons.  I'd play Thendara first, mainly because it features nine Ross holes with some outrageous greens and nine holes through the Adirondack woodlands.  It was only $23 when I played there in the fall.  Why does Thendara not get more attention? I'm not sure.

Give me a shout if you're in the area and we'll play.

[John Foley]

Wow a list I can actuall add to!!

1 - Leatherstocking - gotta agree on that one - not sure I have anything bad to say about it. Every hole works. Lake-side, hill-side uphill brutes, cool quirk. It has everything you could ask for.
2 - Hiawatha - Love every round I get there and I wish it was more. Played some of my absolute best & worse golf there. Go figure. Great strategy all around.
3 - Greystone - Could be #1 except for 18. 4 great great par 5's - #16 may be one of my all time favorites.
4 - Bristol Harbour- Grew up playing alot here and still is a great routing. Small greens with some character and enough bunkers to really make you think.
5 - Ravenwood - The greens should have more movement - Not a fan of #2 at all.

Honorable mention ;
Ivy Ridge - like it alot - very good routing, but a very tough start.
Arrowhead - very good, but one I also need to get back to to rank higher.
Mark Twain - Very good, but to say Ross did alot to it is a streach do't you think?
Seven Oaks - Need to get back and see this. Played it twice both times in horrible rain
Harvest Hill - Very solid except for the very tight par 4 on the back- which was a downer for me.
Hickory Stick - had a rush round last fall driving thru - liked what I saw but it was a little dis-jointed in places.

Mike - Did not know we had another ex-Rochestarian here. Good to know - let me know where you are now & from here.

I liked Farview - has a few really cool holes, but a few head scrathers - Have not been there in a while.

Anyone ever play Old Hickory near Livonia - used to LOVE that course but I bet I haven't see in in 12 years.

[Jay Flemma]

JNC - Your list needs Hiawatha Landing, Conklin, and Greystone.

[David Harshbarger]

There are some good courses here in the Albany area:

Saratoga Spa (Saratoga Springs)
Western Turnpike (Guilderland)
Saratoga Lake and Fairways at Halfmoon (Stillwater/Halfmoon)

I'm broken record when it comes to singing the praises of the Saratoga Spa course.  William F. Mitchell designed it in 1959/1960 or thereabouts.  I think of it as a cathedral of golf, with huge greens, pine tree collonades, and a wonderful, grand scale throughout.  There is strategic variety throughout, but nothing tricked out or gimmicky.  I have yet to tire of it.

I've played all of these and enjoyed them very much.  Western Turnpike is quirky 27 holer with great variety, lots of awkward lies to contend with, green contours in many flavors, etc.  I would think if you have an eye for strategy there'd be much to see there.

Sagamore (Ross) gets good reviews up by Lake George.  Saratoga National made a splash when it debuted about a decade ago.  It has a great reputation as well maintained, a tough test, and expensive.

There's a new (to me) NY Golf Trail that offers packages for the golf tourist and that hits many of the courses mentioned so far.

http://www.nygolftrail.com/

[John Kavanaugh]

Sodus Bay Golf Club is the finest couse for under $50 that I have ever played.

[JNC Lyon]

John F, Jay,

I've only played Hiawatha once, but how much strategy is really out there?  16 is a very cool alternate fairway hole, and I think Silva presents the player with some good choices on holes like 8, 10, 12, and 15. However, a lot of the bunker out there is much more aesthetic than strategic.  I never understood the bunkering on holes like 2 and 14.  The pond holes at 5 to 7 have no strategic interest and are more penal than anything else.  Also 17 and 18 are an exciting but potentially awkward finishing set.

Greystone and Hiawatha share two major problems: a lack of good short fours and awkward par five holes.  There are no good short par fours at Hiawatha, and only the 10th at Greystone is really compelling.  The par fives at Greystone are long slogs.  The 9th hole is a very strange par five because of the trees on the left off the tee.  Additionally, Greystone's 18th is an abortion from tee to green, although the green complex is interesting.

Ultimately, Greystone and Hiawatha are good layouts, but their flaws place them behind courses like Mark Twain and Seven Oaks.  Mark Twain lacks good short fours but includes some interesting par fives, particularly at 3 and 5, to make up for it.  With recent tree removals, the 13th and 17th open up to all sorts of options off the tee as short fours.  17 now gives the player the option to drive across the creek to leave a flip wedge or putt for the second.  The loss of the Christmas trees and gain of fescue on the inside of the dogleg on 13 creates a beautiful diagonal tee shot that is a thrill.

As good as the greens at Greystone are, Seven Oaks and Mark Twain present a beautiful set of greens.  I don't know how much work Ross did at MT, but the greens and routing there are top notch.  The greens at Seven Oaks are a thrill, and the course only gets better as the course takes out more trees.  John F., pick out a date this spring and head down to play it.  I think you'll enjoy it.

Jay, I have not played Conklin Players Club, but do you really think it is better than Mark Twain, Seven Oaks, or Ravenwood?  What are the greens like there?  I'd like to see an explanation of why this deserves to be in the top 5.

John F., I think we'll have to agree to disagree about the 2nd at Ravenwood.  It is possibly my favorite hole at Ravenwood.  The green gives the golfer an opportunity to bail out into the swale in front of the green or play aggressively at the top tier with some risk.  The second shot also has plenty of ground options if you play your tee shot to the high left side of the fairway.  The hole is maddening for good players and very reasonable for the lesser golfer.  It is one of three very interesting short fours at Ravenwood.  These short fours set it apart from some of the other publics in the area.

Here is my second five in Upstate:

6. Greystone
7. Links at Hiawatha Landing
8. Mill Creek
9. Deerfield
10. Terry Hills 1-18 (Had to!)

[JNC Lyon]

David,

I have not played any golf in the Saratoga area.  Your writings compel me to check out Saratoga Spa at some point soon.  Saratoga National would not meet my criteria because it is too expensive.  Frankly, I have no interest in playing a course that is laden with wetlands, cart golf, and incredibly expensive.  This is same reason why the Turning Stone courses don't make my list.

What do you think of Ballston Spa?

John,

I hope you're not serious about Sodus Bay.  Granted it has a few interesting holes (1, 6, 9, and 18 are fun) and is the first course where Trent Jones did work.  However, most of the course has been redone by Geoffrey Cornish, and, as a result, most of the greens contain an identical bunker-mounding scheme.  In fact, he used this scheme on other renovations as well, such as the 4th green at Thendara or the (now NLE) first green at Monroe.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

Thanks for sharing your info but frankly minus Leatherstocking I don't see much listed -- I have played 7 of the courses you listed as being especially more than a Doak 4.

I really like what Rulewich did at Saratoga National but the prices charged during the regular season are nothing short of outrageous given the overall economy -- likely they only care about the fat wallet visitors coming there for the short race season.

Bristol Harbor is a good call -- nothing very exciting but better than others. Ditto for Greystone.

I also liked White Face in the Lake Placid area but really there are no "must" plays in the area to make a special trip to play.

[JNC Lyon]

Matt,

Other than Leatherstocking, none of the courses on my list are top 100 caliber.  However, there is still plenty of architecture out there.  I read in the Confidential Guide that Doak gave Mark Twain a 5.  I know others would put Ravenwood and Greystone ahead of that one, but I think it is a very solid municipal layout built later in Ross's career.

Have you played Thendara?  It is definitely on the shorter side, but some of the greens on the front nine, especially 7 and 9, are wild and different from anything I've seen from Ross.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

The Doak numbers are being too liberally applied -- places like Tallgrass (On the Island) are no more than a Doak 5 -- maybe a 6 in the right circumstances. The ones in the Upstate area are barely cracking the 4 mark in my mind. Even Bethpage Red would be no more than a 5 for me -- and again, I am being quite elastic on that front. Bethpage Black would be no more than a Doak 8.

JNC, you get too hung up on the greens -- what about the other shotmaking elements ?

I have not played Thendara but frankly little about Upstate NY compels me to drop everything and go (save for Oak Hill, Crag Burn, Olde Kinderhook and a few of the other privates).

[John Blain]

 The Top 5:
1) The Sagamore Resort & G.C.
2) Leatherstocking G.C.
3) Links at Hiawatha Landing
4) Ravenwood G.C.
5) Seven Oaks G.C.

Honorable Mention:
1) Saratoga National (This could very well be in the top 5 - or even # 1 - but I have never played there so I can't comment)
2) Saratoga Spa G.C. (Tremendous layout and a "man's size" golf course but I have been told conditioning has slipped in recent years)
3) Mark Twain (great layout but the bunkering has fallen into disrepair).
4) Malone G.C. (East) It has one of the coolest par fives (#5) I've ever played and maybe the best set of 3's in upstate NY.

[JNC Lyon]

Matt,

I don't apply the Doak Scale.  I'm just pointing out that he gave Mark Twain a 5, with no arbitrary judgment from me.

The greens are the highlight at many of these places, particularly Mark Twain and Thendara (some these have to be seen to be believed).  A course like Seven Oaks asks the player to work the ball both ways off the tee throughout the round, and the longer par fours require some serious iron play for the better golfer.  I went through the elements of the short holes out there, all of which are very good.  The routings at Thendara and MT are strong points.  Multiple texts list Thendara's front nine as a model Ross routing, and MT's routing traverses a hillside beautifully.  Ravenwood, too, has a very good routing, which changes directions constantly and takes the player up and down the rolling Western New York landscape.

Writing off Upstate New York as worthless aside from Oak Hill, Crag Burn, and Olde K is a mistake.  Architects like Ross and Travis did plenty of solid work up here.  How about CC of Buffalo featuring several holes through a limestone quarry?  Or Monroe, with another great Ross routing through unusually sandy terrain? Or Irondequoit, with its positively wild undulations on the front nine creating some very unique golf.  Clearly, Upstate NY doesn't compare in quality to places like the Metro or Philly areas, but, then again, what does?  Upstate New York is its own unique region of golf, and it has plenty of variety to offer with a more low-key atmosphere than the clubs in the New York-Philly line.

[JNC Lyon]

The Top 5:
1) The Sagamore Resort & G.C.
2) Leatherstocking G.C.
3) Links at Hiawatha Landing
4) Ravenwood G.C.
5) Seven Oaks G.C.

Honorable Mention:
1) Saratoga National (This could very well be in the top 5 - or even # 1 - but I have never played there so I can't comment)
2) Saratoga Spa G.C. (Tremendous layout and a "man's size" golf course but I have been told conditioning has slipped in recent years)
3) Mark Twain (great layout but the bunkering has fallen into disrepair).
4) Malone G.C. (East) It has one of the coolest par fives (#5) I've ever played and maybe the best set of 3's in upstate NY.

Sagamore ahead of Leatherstocking?  It must be a hell of a layout then.  What do you like about Links at Hiawatha?  I guess I'd like to hear an argument from someone who really enjoys it.

Brad Klein wrote something about Malone in Rough Meditations, so I guess I should make the effort to get up there.  Saratoga Spa seems like another place that I need to check out.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

I write off Upstate NY because I have had the opportunity to see what lies elsewhere in the USA. Time and opportunity are limited so one has to make the most of things.

The private side in the Upstate area has certain courses of note -- I can add a few others as well but if one wants to see top quality public offerings -- NY State is not one of them -- minus the likes of Bethpage Black and to a lesser degree places like Tallgrass and Bethpage Red. No doubt NY is arguably the best private provider of courses in the nation but the public side is no where near what you see in places like Indiana or Michigan or Colorado. Trust me -- I've played quite a few to make such a statement.

I don't doubt what you say -- but context matters.

[michael damico]

JNC...just moved back out to CO after returning back to Rochester for the past year and a half.

A buddy of mine who I met while working grounds at Oak Hill just received a job as superintendent out in Rome, NY at an old Ross original: Teugega CC. Went out there to see what he has been able to do with Berry Jordan's long term plan. Very cool to see an almost untouched Ross (like Twain in a sense) especially after working several years at Oak Hill.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

Please don't misunderstand me -- no doubt there are elements of solid design in plenty of the places you mentioned. If that works for you and others then knock yourself out and play them to the max.

I do think the private side has a few courses of note -- you mentioned some already -- I added one that is vastly underrated in the likes of Olde Kinderhook.

On the public side there are a few that have enough there -- but do they have enough for a special visit (say 100+ miles) -- that's where we part company.

[John Foley]

Michael,

Teugega is awesome - really really cool old ross & Jordan seems to be doing a good job of capturing back some of the magic.

John K

I have heard good stuff about Sodus, but never gotten out there - Hope to someday.

JNC

Have not been to Durrand Eastman - need to one day & yes we will agree to disagree about #2 @ Ravenwood!!

Matt Ward

Have you had the chance to play Leatherstocking??

John Blain

I have always heard Sagamore is not worth the price when Leatherstocking is in the 'hood - I'll put that on the list of place to get and see.

[JNC Lyon]

JNC...just moved back out to CO after returning back to Rochester for the past year and a half.

A buddy of mine who I met while working grounds at Oak Hill just received a job as superintendent out in Rome, NY at an old Ross original: Teugega CC. Went out there to see what he has been able to do with Berry Jordan's long term plan. Very cool to see an almost untouched Ross (like Twain in a sense) especially after working several years at Oak Hill.

Teugega is one of my favorites in the region behind only Leatherstocking and Oak Hill West.  The trees are a little overgrown, but the greens and bunker outlines are all there.  The greens there are unreal as a set.  I hope the club can keep going forward with Jordan's plan there--it looks like he has done some good stuff out there already.

[JNC Lyon]

Apparently, there is a new Nicklaus course outside Syracuse called Timber Banks.  I'm not sure how they can be developing anything in that area right now, but I'd like to check it out some time.  Anyone know anything about it?

[Matt_Ward]

John F:

Yes, I have and I have already alluded to it as an exception to my overall comments.

But, let's not get carried away and say it's a must play item for those coming from different parts of the
country. That can be said for a few of the privates in the area -- most notably, Olde Kinderhook which is
totally forgotten by many.

In regards to The Sagamore -- nicely done layout but not within the price point JNC spelled out initially.

[John Blain]

John-

My Top 5 is based for the most part on personal preference. I not only enjoy playing The Sagamore, I love the setting. Sitting out on the clubhouse patio drinking a cold one overlooking Lake George after a round on a gorgeous late summer/early fall day is about as good as it gets. Of course, you could make the same argument about Leatherstocking. For me, Sagamore is more of a championship course (7,000 yards, par 70) than Leatherstocking but I enjoy them both.

The others are all pretty much interchangeable. They all have their good and bad features but for public play they are terrific.

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