[David Harshbarger]

JNC,

If you get over to Saratoga I'd be happy to join you at the Spa course.

Dave

[Ronald Montesano]

Flashy new courses by name architects:  The three at Turning Stone, Saratoga National, Seneca Hickory Stick, Harvest Hill, Diamond Hawk, Timber Banks (although Nicklaus never set foot on property, according to my never-to-be-named source), Mill Creek, Hiawatha, Ravenwood,

Old School Publics: Otesaga/Leatherstocking, Lafayette Hills (Syracuse), Chautauqua Ross, Mark Twain

Middle Age Publics:  The Monster at Concord, Grossingers' Big G, Seven Oaks, Glen Oak

Homespun Newbies/Non-Name Architects: Links at Ivy Ridge, Greystone, Arrowhead, Conklin PC, Holiday Valley, Peek 'n Peak Upper, Chautauqua Hassenplug

And I could go far beyond the 25 courses listed here, as I don't have any from the Albany-South area. I have to agree with Matt Ward, that NY state public golf, especially upstate, pales in comparison to its private counterparts. Want as we might, upstate NY public golf is good to excellent, but never great.

Think of all the courses listed above...which ones are on "great" pieces of land, as defined by turf or topography? I don't think a one of them claims a great piece of turf; they are all farmland courses, not a one is sandy base. As far as topography goes, you have the hill courses (southwestern NY, Catskills, Adirondacks) the flat- and dryland courses and the flat- and wetland courses.

Now think about routing. Does any one of the old-school courses claim an inspired and perfect routing? I'd say no. Most of the courses above have at least 14 (but no more) excellent to great holes. This holds them back, and holds me back as well, from a top-five list. The hairs that need to be split to eliminate numbers six on down are too fine for me to hew, so I leave the selection process to those of you much better schooled in this type of course analysis than am I.

I will leave you with a bit of opinion, however. Timber Banks and Seneca Hickory Stick have some interesting golf holes and are excellent additions to the UNYS public realm; it is a shame that Walter J. Travis never designed intended public courses; Mark Twain deserves better administration, as does Durand-Eastman; Arrowhead could benefit from a longer set of championship tees (tips at 6700); nothing in the Catskills has any sense of subtlety nor humility; Michael Hurdzan's team shortchanged western New York when it came to the par three holes at Harvest Hill and Diamond Hawk (collectively, they are terrible), in stark contrast to the par fives and short par fours, which are brilliant; Paul Albanese and Scott Witter deserved to come along 10 years earlier than when they made their marks (Mill Creek and Holiday Valley; Deerwood, Arrowhead and Ironwood) in UNYS.

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

What's really funny is that as bad as public golf collectively is in NY -- Pennsy may be even worse.

Hard to imagine two states with great private clubs -- is so short in terms of depth of really solid public lauouts.

[Brad Tufts]

What's Chautauqua like?  The Ross Society website claims he did only 9 holes there out of 36. 

Looks like that involves the "Lake Course."

[Jay Flemma]

Every hole at Turning Stone Toads the Wet Sprocket.

[Chris_Blakely]

What's Chautauqua like?  The Ross Society website claims he did only 9 holes there out of 36. 

Looks like that involves the "Lake Course."

Some rolling terrain: Ross's holes are spilt between both courses,  I played all of the Ross holes on my trip out there, but skipped the rest of Hassenplug holes.

The other 9 holes were completed by Seymour Dunn, the ones I believer were by him have some unique green pads.  I would post pictures of the course, but his was before I got a digital camera.

Chris

[JNC Lyon]

Flashy new courses by name architects:  The three at Turning Stone, Saratoga National, Seneca Hickory Stick, Harvest Hill, Diamond Hawk, Timber Banks (although Nicklaus never set foot on property, according to my never-to-be-named source), Mill Creek, Hiawatha, Ravenwood,

Old School Publics: Otesaga/Leatherstocking, Lafayette Hills (Syracuse), Chautauqua Ross, Mark Twain

Middle Age Publics:  The Monster at Concord, Grossingers' Big G, Seven Oaks, Glen Oak

Homespun Newbies/Non-Name Architects: Links at Ivy Ridge, Greystone, Arrowhead, Conklin PC, Holiday Valley, Peek 'n Peak Upper, Chautauqua Hassenplug

And I could go far beyond the 25 courses listed here, as I don't have any from the Albany-South area. I have to agree with Matt Ward, that NY state public golf, especially upstate, pales in comparison to its private counterparts. Want as we might, upstate NY public golf is good to excellent, but never great.

Think of all the courses listed above...which ones are on "great" pieces of land, as defined by turf or topography? I don't think a one of them claims a great piece of turf; they are all farmland courses, not a one is sandy base. As far as topography goes, you have the hill courses (southwestern NY, Catskills, Adirondacks) the flat- and dryland courses and the flat- and wetland courses.

Now think about routing. Does any one of the old-school courses claim an inspired and perfect routing? I'd say no. Most of the courses above have at least 14 (but no more) excellent to great holes. This holds them back, and holds me back as well, from a top-five list. The hairs that need to be split to eliminate numbers six on down are too fine for me to hew, so I leave the selection process to those of you much better schooled in this type of course analysis than am I.

I will leave you with a bit of opinion, however. Timber Banks and Seneca Hickory Stick have some interesting golf holes and are excellent additions to the UNYS public realm; it is a shame that Walter J. Travis never designed intended public courses; Mark Twain deserves better administration, as does Durand-Eastman; Arrowhead could benefit from a longer set of championship tees (tips at 6700); nothing in the Catskills has any sense of subtlety nor humility; Michael Hurdzan's team shortchanged western New York when it came to the par three holes at Harvest Hill and Diamond Hawk (collectively, they are terrible), in stark contrast to the par fives and short par fours, which are brilliant; Paul Albanese and Scott Witter deserved to come along 10 years earlier than when they made their marks (Mill Creek and Holiday Valley; Deerwood, Arrowhead and Ironwood) in UNYS.

Ron,

You should check out Deerfield, which is Northwest of Rochester.  It is pretty demanding from all the way back, and it has a very wild set of greens that really pop in a meadowland setting.  I think you would enjoy it.

[Ronald Montesano]

Death, Taxes and Flemma's disdain for Turning Stone...all are inevitable and unchanging.

In my opinion, Kaluhyat could be blown up and the golf world would not be a worse place. As much as I love RTJ2's work at Seneca Hickory Stick (and I imagine, as I would at Chambers Bay), I cannot recall any hole at Kaluhyat that I really, really liked. I do tend to play it from the tips, however, so next time, I'll move up a deck and see if my opinion changes. Shenandoah was one of Rick Smith's early designs and probably his first outside of Michigan. It has some accesible holes and some forgettable ones and is more in line with the thinking of this DG. Atunyote has a bunch of memorable holes and a few duds and is the least "forced" onto the land. The two previous courses were designed onto non-contiguous pieces of land and are therefore, at least a bit disconnected. The overdependance on water as prime feature is the one element of Turning Stone that turns me off.

What is happening in golf of late, as a few contributors have downright assessed, is that great pieces of land simply don't exist/are unavailable. Many magazines/websites run the occasional "Where I'd like to plop a golf course in Buffalo"-type column, eliciting or offering suggested sites that are already in use for other purposes.

There is a quarry just east of Buffalo, across the street from Fox Valley Club, that I would kill to see developed as a golf course. There is a transitional slope along I-90 East, just east of Batavia, that I would love to see in play as a golf course. Will either of these see 18 holes, ever? Doubtful.

[John Foley]

Ron,

I have had the same thoughts about that quarry and if your talking about the area near Genesee CC - I have had the same thoughts.

Also -there is some great land in the southern tier. If you draw a box 10 miles either side of 390 / 86 /17 from Letchworth to Elmira you would find some pretty amazing places to build a golf course.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

The question is why weren't any really built in the southern tier ?

Links at Hiawatha is a nice course but if anyone were to say it's a must play for people coming from more than 100+ miles it would be a stretch in my mind.

[paul cowley]

Although not expected to top my favorite Leatherstocking, I'm surprised Orchard Creek hasn't been mentioned....Golf Digest and others have...including a Best New some years back. Not flashy, but affordable and fun...my kind of course.

[Ronald Montesano]

Matt,
I'd go with funding (who's going to pay), clientele (who's going to play) and environmental restrictions, as to the reason that better courses don't exist in central south.

There is a decent one called Reservoir Creek...I prefer it to Bristol Harbour, which offered the same, bad topography to RTJ1 as did Kaluhyat to RTJ2. Blaine Harrison, a Canadian shaper, did the shaping at RC and also, later on, at The Links At Ivy Ridge, up by me.


JNC,

Deerfield is recently public, is it not?

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

Environmental reasons can be used for any state -- NY doesn't get an excuse because of that.

The Southern Tier could have been the site for at least 1-2 really superb courses -- frankly the fumbles are
what they are. People have traveled to remote areas -- see what the folks did in Marquette, MI with Greywalls or with what
Jeff B with his designs at Fortune Bay in MN. Keep in mind, other courses were built in that area and Links at Hiawatha is merely
functional golf at best.

Still waiting for your obvious concession partner.

[Ronald Montesano]

Matt, can you show me places in central-southern tiers where courses were built that could have great ones?  If not, perhaps it simply wasn't the priority of the people in those areas. Golf as exercise and diversion, not as aesthetic exercise.

No one is going to touch Letchworth. My guess is that the Finger Lakes don't have golf around them because inhabitants preferred water sports over land sports, and therefore located their vacation homes on the shores.

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

Say it slowly --

E-X-C-U-S-E-S ...

If people can build a place like Engh has done on very hilly sites -- the same for other architects then anything could have been done.

Please say the next word ...

F-U-M-B-L-E-S ...

 

[JNC Lyon]

Ron,

Deerfield has been public for a while, at least 6 or 7 years now.  Try it sometime!

Paul,

I've never heard of Orchard Creek, but it looks and sounds like a neat golf course.  It is reasonable close to Colgate, so I will have to investigate at some point.

[Ronald Montesano]

Matt,
You take optimal scenarios (land, great architect, funding) and try to force them onto what you perceive (and perceive for others, by proxy) as less-than-desirable results. Engh always has a sugar daddy and that sugar daddy is comfortable enough with Engh to let him run the show.

The cases you point to in NYS were polar opposites of Engh situations.  Have you seen the disconnected plot of land on which Kaluhyat rests? Let's give it to Engh and see...

[Jim_Kennedy]

JNC,
It's in Altamont, just west of Albany, in the foothills of the Helderbergs. It's a very peaceful setting that runs through an apple orchard. It possesses  some very interesting terrain, all very walkable,a nd Paul used the property to great advantage. The layout never feels constrained, even though there is some stream and wetland frontage. There is enough room to play the ball, but there are some fun challenges off the tee for most every level of player, and bring your favorite putter if you go (leave the balky one in the closet).
  
I enjoy it enough to make the 3 1/2 hour round trip several times a season. It's under $30.00 after 12 noon, a true bargain.


p.s. A safe bet is to offer to buy drinks for any of the guys you play with if their total score is 12(w/ their handicap) on the par 3s.  
 

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

Far enough -- but truly people have done wonders with sites just as flat and just as water infested as TS -- check out many different locales in SE Florida -- so much more could have been done -- but wasn't. Hard for me to see how private clubs and courses coiuld be created on all sorts of land areas -- but nothing public of real standing -- more than the Black and a tiny number of other fairly so-so layouts were created.

Ron -- you're straining to get out from under - just admit the obvious. Your hand is weak -- time to fold the cards partner.

Too bad -- TS could have offered a real differentiation of courses -- just more of the same vareity -- althogh I do admit turf quality and their greens are in very good shape.

[paul cowley]

Thanks Jim...interesting bet...especially with the 15th, which used to play 250 yds+ from both the white and blue tees [I've heard they have moved the whites one tee forward to 220 something].

Admitting my bias, but 13 thru 18 are a challenging and fun stretch starting with an 470 par 4...followed by a 260 par 4...followed by a 250 yd par three...followed by a 600 yd par 5...followed by a 200 yd par 3....followed by the 490 par 5 very risk reward 18th.

I hope to play in a few weeks when I bring my folks back up north for the summer....anyone?

[David Harshbarger]

I'd be glad to join if you need a 4th.  Orchard Creek is well regarded among the local players I know. 

[paul cowley]

David...message me your # and I'll call when I know my schedule better.

Btw, there is very little I could not tell you about Western Turnpike...learned to golf and worked there...knew about everyone from its beginning until the past 15 years or so. I'm chuckling as I type this.

[JNC Lyon]

I'll be at Colgate until early May, and I'd love to play Orchard Creek at some point between now and then.

[paul cowley]

JNC...message me your # also if you care to and I'll see what I can do.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Admitting my bias, but 13 thru 18 are a challenging and fun stretch starting with an 470 par 4...followed by a 260 par 4...followed by a 250 yd par three...followed by a 600 yd par 5...followed by a 200 yd par 3....followed by the 490 par 5 very risk reward 18th.

Those two holes, 14 & 15, are a devilish-duo. Trying to drive fourteen in one is a very tempting proposition. It's an uphill tee shot to a split fairway, low on the right side, green height on the left. Come up short in the R. fairway and you'll be left with a touchy pitch to a green that's at least 15' above your head. The left side fairway will aid a slightly drawn(I'm a lefty) ball toward the green (which is no putting-picnic).

The 15th is downhill, and I've used driver down to 4 iron depending on the wind. Both the approach fairway and the green slope from high right to low left and par is almost impossible if you end up anywhere right of the flag, unless it's placed way over on the left side of the surface. We joke that it's the shortest par 5 on the course.   Careful putting might get you a birdie 4. 

Anyway, the course and the family run operation are a model of what public golf can and should be, challenging yet fun for all and reasonably priced.

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