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David Harshbarger

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The next Norman Einstein, and how would we know?
« on: March 21, 2011, 10:39:30 PM »
There's a good thread going on about the architect as genius, about the veneration/sanctification/calcification of the works of the ODG. 

Take that idea of genius.  Is there a genius amongst the GCA world?  2, 3?  How would we know? 

It seems that some of the tests from other disciplines don't apply.  Einstein and his fellow physicists had access to the same facts, research and world view.  His theory of relativity, however, set the world on its ear by combining gravity and light and time into a single construct.  Goodbye ether, hello time-space continuum.

What would contemporary genius look like? 

1.   A contest is held to layout a golf course on a desirable piece of land.  There are obvious and less obvious holes.  The master plans come in.  Genius is the routing that eschews the obvious holes, instead finding a less obvious routing that is clearly better.

2. Golf is played over 18 holes of a relatively static layout.  The course is setup, par established, the players play.  The genius delivers a new version of golf.  The tees and greens change from round to round.  Par changes, routing changes, the meaning of a course changes.  The meaning of golf changes.

Personally, I think 2 is fanciful and 1 contrived, but, that said, how would you know genius afoot?

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next Norman Einstein, and how would we know?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2011, 10:51:57 PM »
David,

I don't know if you've seen this, but Charlie Goerges has put together a fine contest which closely resembles your #1. http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43746.0.html

As for genius, by Garland Bayley's standards I am one, but I have no idea who else made that list  :)  I would imagine that there are quite a few geniuses on this board, especially after meeting some men this weekend. I hope this helps, but I also doubt that I've gotten to the crux of your question.

As for your first statement, however, I think your definition might be off. I would imagine that the best holes can be obvious to both genius and non-genius, but the genius makes the most of the same land.

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next Norman Einstein, and how would we know?
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2011, 07:41:58 AM »
Alex,

First thank you for proving, yet again, that every topic on GCA has already been done on this site, often more than once.   :-*

Would you say Ross represents getting the most out of the land?  Over a long career he delivered consistently excellent courses in a variety of climates and settings.  I would think recognizing this type of genius is to recognize contemporaries who garner deserved acclaim.

As for number 2, does the HORSE course in Nebraska constitue genius, at least in conception?  It remains to be seen how successful that will be.  But you have to appreciate the willingness to invest in an alternative concept of what it means to "play" golf.  Fixed yardages, tee boxes, par, slope and rating, handicap index, recording every round, these are concepts that define the context in which golf is played, at least for many. Is there genius, if that's even the right term, for whoever can reinvent the experience of golf in a way that challenges those concepts, possibly opening up new ways to play?

For example, there was recent discussion about Thomas's LACC North course, and his attempt to build a course within a course.  Some holes could be setup to play as Par 3 or 4.  One of the limitations was that if the par changed, the course would need different slope ratings, suggesting those setups only be played on special occassions.  That he would try this concept, though, strikes me as genius of the second type.

Are there other opportunities to convention.  It's often lamented that courses aren't equipment proof.  A par 3 designed with a long iron mind evolves into a mid-iron shot for every class of player.  What if, instead, the teeing instructions were simply "hit from where you would normally hit a 3 iron".  Hit whatever you want, just pick that distance.

The same approach could be applies on any hole, I think, however, the idea of course "distance" takes a beating.

Are there architects pushing the envelope in these types of directions?  What's the link to the prior thread?   :)

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next Norman Einstein, and how would we know?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2011, 08:01:14 AM »
David...

Don't worry if the stuff has been discussed before.  A new set of ideas on old problems is a good thing and those old discussions need to continue.  Heck, we are still debating technology behind the golf ball, the distance it goes, how long a round of golf takes to play and it seems like those discussions are over 100 years old.

I don't know if this is in the vein of what you are talking about, but how about a course without any set par.  The course is simply what it is...not a par 72, 71...or whatever.  Holes are not a par 3, 4, or 5. 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next Norman Einstein, and how would we know?
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2011, 01:16:05 PM »
David,

Was not Picasso a genius?

How does he fit into your scheme of things.

I labeled Alex a genius, because he saw things I didn't see. Others in the contest saw things I saw and discarded.

Did not Picasso see things others didn't see?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next Norman Einstein, and how would we know?
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2011, 01:28:12 PM »
Was not Picasso a genius?

Which Picasso are you talking about -- Pablo, or Norman?

Someone had to ask.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next Norman Einstein, and how would we know?
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2011, 07:33:01 PM »
Garland,

I'd put Picasso squarely in genius category.  Not only did he see things others didn't see, he created new ways of seeing.  That is genius of the first (or second in my classification) order.

You say that CB MacDonald, in the states, did that with NGLA. 

I don't know that I'd say the Architect that defines a new style should be called genius, if that style does not bring a substantive change.

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next Norman Einstein, and how would we know?
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2011, 07:45:12 PM »
David...

Don't worry if the stuff has been discussed before.  A new set of ideas on old problems is a good thing and those old discussions need to continue.  Heck, we are still debating technology behind the golf ball, the distance it goes, how long a round of golf takes to play and it seems like those discussions are over 100 years old.

I don't know if this is in the vein of what you are talking about, but how about a course without any set par.  The course is simply what it is...not a par 72, 71...or whatever.  Holes are not a par 3, 4, or 5. 

Mac, thanks for the buck up. 

I agree there's a lot to be said to getting rid of par.  It's like shedding a constraining garment.  In some ways that is what Match play brings isn't it?

How about this: what if you threw out the tee markers? Step up to the tee, there's a sign: "hit from your 5 iron yardage".  You look down, there're numbered markers every five yards on a long tee box.  Note, the sign doesn't say hit your 5 iron.

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next Norman Einstein, and how would we know?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2011, 08:07:46 PM »
I said nothing about inventing a new style. I simply wrote about seeing what others don't see.

A very common refrain on this website is that Fazio and Nicklaus see the same things over and over and over and over and ....

Let's start by saying they are not geniiiii. ;)

Some architects see that golf is a game in the natural elements. When you look at Raynor and others you see they do not make their work look natural.

Let's classify them as not geniiii.

After you do some of this, you have to start comparing the resulting works of the others done in different environments. If you can classify Picasso and Van Gogh as geniiii, then you should be able to form a subjective opinion of genius architects. After all, your classification of Picasso as genius is subjective.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next Norman Einstein, and how would we know?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2011, 10:10:10 PM »
I said nothing about inventing a new style. I simply wrote about seeing what others don't see.

A very common refrain on this website is that Fazio and Nicklaus see the same things over and over and over and over and ....

Let's start by saying they are not geniiiii. ;)

Some architects see that golf is a game in the natural elements. When you look at Raynor and others you see they do not make their work look natural.

Let's classify them as not geniiii.

After you do some of this, you have to start comparing the resulting works of the others done in different environments. If you can classify Picasso and Van Gogh as geniiii, then you should be able to form a subjective opinion of genius architects. After all, your classification of Picasso as genius is subjective.


Garland, my first response, a masterpiece of art history analysis, was lost to the 60 minute time bell.

Here's the gist: subtractionist approach I like.
Seeing vs. redefining sight; my intro
Seeing differently; CB MacDonald, at least provincially.
Seeing the same over and over: no geniii
Seeing non-natural styles: I'm open to the idea of artificial looking courses
Picasso: created a new way of seeing: Genius

:)
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next Norman Einstein, and how would we know?
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2011, 01:18:48 PM »
David,

If you use the login at the bottom of the page, it will allow you to log in forever and not lose posts.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jim Nugent

Re: The next Norman Einstein, and how would we know?
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2011, 01:45:42 PM »
Another way is to write your post in a word-processing program, then paste it here.  A little less convenient, but almost guarantees you don't lose posts. 

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next Norman Einstein, and how would we know?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2011, 09:09:57 PM »
Garland and Jim, thank you very much.  I've never really been a forum poster, and some of the conventions are tripping me up.  I appreciate the helping hand.

There are a lot of names of architects tossed around here.  Who are the genii, and why, especially among those at work?  Are they seeing things others don't see?  Are they defining new ways to see.
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright