[Patrick_Mucci]

In looking at the 1903 map, which may not be exactly precise, I was wondering how NGLA's Cape hole evolved.

We're told that the hole originally had the green to the right of its current location and that the "introduction" or "shifting" of the road to the clubhouse caused the green to be shifted to the left.

Macdonald's schematic, circa 1910, found in George Bahto's book, "The Evangelist of Golf" seems to show the road to the left of the green.   Today, it's to the right of the green.

When was the change made ?

And, is the changed hole superior to the original ?

Secondly,

If Sebonic Inlet road existed as depicted, there's not a question in my mind that Macdonald ALWAYS intended for his ultimate clubhouse to be in its present location.

The road, yacht basin, bathing house, and especially the distance between the 18th and 1st fairways lead one to believe that he always wanted to site his clubhouse at its present site.

Add to that, his dislike for being too close to Shinnecock Hills, the absence of land by his initial 1st and 10th holes, the fact that the Shinnecock clubhouse would look down at that location (1st tee, 18th green) and his unpleasant departure from Shinnecock Hills, all leads to but one conclusion, the clubhouse was ALWAYS intended to be sited where it presently sits.

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

Sebonac Inlet road was built in 1924, I believe.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

It was always my understanding (though perhaps wrong, I never really questioned it much) that Sebonac Inlet Road was built to access National's new clubhouse, well after the course was built.  Is that really a 1903 map you posted?

The road to the right of current #14 green is clearly a bit of fill.  The water to the right of #14 would have been a bay off the inlet before that.

I always wondered if the entrance to the old maintenance building, and that big archway over it, was not for a time the entrance to the clubhouse, with the driveway proceeding on what's now the maintenance road between #5 and #15 and on along the ridgeline.

It's also interesting to note that today's Sebonac Road, which crosses the 8th and 11th holes at National, did not connect up to the main highway to the west back then.  It appears that when Macdonald built National, that road was nothing more than the driveway which accesses what is now Sebonack Golf Club, previously the Sabin estate.

[DMoriarty]

Here is a photo of the Cape from American Golfer, 1910.  No Road?



One from the fairway, 1914.


A slightly different angle, 1910.


My understanding is that there was some disagreement about whether the road that ran across Sabin's property on Sebonack Neck (now Sebonack GC) was public or private.  (The road was Cold Spring Road, which also ran through SHGC, and across NGLA (about where the Road crosses now,) and then up through Sabin's property.   I may not be recalling the details exactly, but I believe that around 1923 the town agreed to deem the road private provided that they could have access along the inlet, and thus the inlet road was made public.

ADDED:  I think there may have been a road already there, but I don't think it was considered public until the mid-1920s.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

It was always my understanding (though perhaps wrong, I never really questioned it much) that Sebonac Inlet Road was built to access National's new clubhouse, well after the course was built.  

Is that really a 1903 map you posted?

Tom, this was the 1903 Map Bryan Izatt posted.
One more map for the mix; from the 1903 U.S.G.S. - State of New York survey.  



The road to the right of current #14 green is clearly a bit of fill.  The water to the right of #14 would have been a bay off the inlet before that.

I always wondered if the entrance to the old maintenance building, and that big archway over it, was not for a time the entrance to the clubhouse, with the driveway proceeding on what's now the maintenance road between #5 and #15 and on along the ridgeline.

I've always been puzzled by the stone entrance to the Superintendent's home.
It seemed to ornate to be an entrance to a maintainance area and home.
Perhaps it was an entrance or even a service entrance to NGLA.

But, if the map is correct, then the road leading to the current entrance was in place in 1903, making the current site a natural

It's also interesting to note that today's Sebonac Road, which crosses the 8th and 11th holes at National, did not connect up to the main highway to the west back then.  It appears that when Macdonald built National, that road was nothing more than the driveway which accesses what is now Sebonack Golf Club, previously the Sabin estate.


The 1907 advertisement for the Shinnecock Inn may be the key to that issue.
The ad claims that new roads, providing those views were now in place.
The old road didn't come close to Cold Spring Pond, the new road parralleled it and then cut through the 8th and 11th holes at NGLA

Mike,

If you look at the 1903 Map that Bryan posted, you can see that the road did exist.
That road is where Sebonic Inlet road is today.
So, I doubt that the road didn't exist until 1924.

[DMoriarty]

Here is the Plasticine model from the 1914 Golf Illustrated article. Note that there is a road visible near the tee.  
  



Here is Whigham's diagram from his 1909 Scribner's article on the course.  Note the road.



So while the road may not have been a public access road, it looks like there was a road a bit inland from the hole.  

ADDED:

Actually looking back at the first picture I posted (from behind the tee) I can barely make out what looks like it may have been a road running diagonally along the hill. 

[Tom_Doak]

David:

The road you mention (and the bridge pictured) is the entrance drive to the maintenance facility, and the maintenance road that I mentioned earlier.  Perhaps these were a designated road prior to the construction of National [that's what we would see on a 1903 map], and were replaced at a later date because the club didn't like people driving through to get to the bay.

[George_Bahto]

The old gates by Salinetti’s house and the Eden green were donated by Willie Vanderbilt, Jr and served as the main entrance to the club and its clubhouse, meandering up thru the maintenance area and then went thru the course to the clubhouse. (Macdonald bitched because the original price for moving them from Vanderbilts yachting area was about $600 which the club had to absorb)

This all changed when George Borne donated the present Macdonald gate entrance and this is when 14-green was moved inland, killing the original Cape idea, and the new green complex for the 17th was built

[jkinney]

Tom  is correct, and the current Sebonac Inlet Road runs right between the words Sebonac and Creek on Whigham's diagram. The archway at the entrance of the maintenance road probably does mean that this was the main entrance in the early years of the clubhouse.

[Mike Cirba]

This may help;

1912;



1915;




Really doesn't look like much more than a sandy/dirt path, single-lane "roads" in that part of LI being what they were at that time, something akin to a cart path.

I'm not sure i understand the basic premise here either.   If CBM wanted the green in today's location, what exactly was stopping him from putting it there originally?

[Mike Cirba]

Although crudely drawn, it does appear from the description that CBM originally had his 18th gree (which was originally the 9th) further away from the bay, and almost running through where today's clubhouse is.   In fact, it appears to run to the left of a big bunker drawn, instead of to the right.

This article appeared in July 1907, and was the first public appearance of the routing known.

Of course, this was the plan prior to the fire that burned the Shinnecock Inn in April 1908, that forced the club to build a clubhouse which they moved to its present location.

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba,  

What are you talking about?   Wasn't Patrick's original "premise" contemplating the location of the Cape green, not the 18th green?   It was the Cape green that was eventually moved, from its original intended location to a point inland.

He also considers the eventual location of the clubhouse, but I don't see why you think the location of the 18th green (then the 9th) was being considered.  

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Don't be purposefully obtuse.

Patrick's original contention is that he wanted to locate the clubhouse where he eventually built it all along.

He wrote;

The road, yacht basin, bathing house, and especially the distance between the 18th and 1st fairways lead one to believe that he always wanted to site his clubhouse at its present site.

That's apparently not the case at all as it seems his original 18th (9th) hole as drawn would have cruised right through it.

Also, what was preventing him from locating the cape green in today's location in the first place if it was a better hole from there?

[Patrick_Mucci]

George, Tom, J,

Thanks for the responses.

In looking at the 1903 Map, it appears that Sebonic Inlet Road may have been THE road that cut through the Superintendent's front yard, to the maintainance building and then on up to the club house.

Look at how it starts distancing itself from Bulls Head Bay once it skirts # 14 and then curls around up to where today's clubhouse is.

This would have the road bisecting # 13, paralleling # 14 then splicing between holes 5 & 15, 16 & 2, behind or infront of # 1 green to the clubhouse.

I can see why CBM would want that road moved.

But, with the road in existance in 1903, there's no doubt in my mind that at the end of that road they found their ideal location for a clubhouse on their initial ride.

That clubhouse site stands out so glaringly, high up on the bluff with gorgeous views, far away from being under the eyes of the Shinnecock Hills clubhouse, and far away from the North Highway and Railroad Tracks, which were CBM's stated objectives.

George,

Relative to today's green, where was the original cape green ?

As Tom Doak alluded to, Sebonic Inlet Rd, as it parallels # 14 fairway seems to exist strictly due to fill as it flanks the water to the East.
So, I'm wondering, was it down by the tidal pool short of today's green, right on the water, close to today's Sebonic Inlet rd ?

[Mike Cirba]

Here's what CBM wrote about his clubhouse location.

For those not following the mess on the NGLA thread, I've contended that CBM's apparently needing to use the Shinnecock Inn for a clubhouse, which was 1.45 miles away from Peconic Bay, largely dictated an out-and-back routing along a generally narrow stretch, and also meaning he could only use 1/4 mile of that beautiful waterfront along Peconic Bay, and was therefore unable to fully utilize the 450 acres at his disposal, much of which is today the beatiful property of Sebonack GC.

When he routed the golf course in late 1906 and into 1907, he was somewhat land-locked based on his decision to use the Shinnecock Inn as his starting and ending points.

Sometimes, non-golf determinants drive what's possible.

Patrick is apparently trying to continue in his mode of CBM as Superman, who not only routed all 18 holes of a bramble-covered swampland on two days on horseback, but also now mystically envisioned the site for the clubhouse at the same time.     I understand hero-worship, but this is myth-making on a new scale!  

Here's what CBM wrote about the matter.   Note that he was slightly incorrect, in that the Shinnecock Inn burned to the ground in April 1908, not 1909.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Here's what CBM wrote about his clubhouse location.

For those not following the mess on the NGLA thread, I've contended that CBM's apparently needing to use the Shinnecock Inn for a clubhouse, which was 1.45 miles away from Peconic Bay, largely dictated an out-and-back routing along a generally narrow stretch, and also meaning he could only use 1/4 mile of that beautiful waterfront along Peconic Bay, and was therefore unable to fully utilize the 450 acres at his disposal, much of which is today the beatiful property of Sebonack GC.

Mike, again, you're reply is agenda driven.
Macdonald was using the Shinnecock Inn as his TEMPORARY clubhouse, NOT his permanent clubhouse.

When he routed the golf course in late 1906 and into 1907, he was somewhat land-locked based on his decision to use the Shinnecock Inn as his starting and ending points.

He had TWO starting and finishing points, his temporary clubhouse, the Shinnecock Inn and his final clubhouse, the current site, thus, his out and back routing was predetermined.

Sometimes, non-golf determinants drive what's possible.

Not in this case.
Macdonald would NEVER select a clubhouse site that was in the shadow of the Shinnecock clubhouse.
He stated that he wanted to get as far away from Shinnecock as possible, as far away from the North Highway and Railroad as possible, thus, today's current site, was always his intended site.  The Shinnecock Inn was just a temporary site.

Patrick is apparently trying to continue in his mode of CBM as Superman, who not only routed all 18 holes of a bramble-covered swampland on two days on horseback, but also now mystically envisioned the site for the clubhouse at the same time.    

That's absolutely correct.
The road, as depicted in the 1903 New York State Topo goes right to the clubhouse site, exposing an incredible view, one perhaps superior to Shinneock's.
In addition, CBM would NEVER site his clubhouse in the shadow of the Shinnecock clubhouse.
He wanted to remove himself as far away from Shinnecock as possible.  He stated so.
He stated that he wanted to be far away from the roads and railroads and used 3 miles from Southampton, I believe, to describe his ideal location.

In addition, if you weren't going to site NGLA's clubhouse in its present site, you wouldn't leave that enormous gap of land between today's 18th and 1st fairway, you'd shift the 1st fairway closer to Peconic Bay.   But, that didn't happen.  Instead CBM left an enormous gap between those two holes, and that was because that's where he ALWAYS intended to site his permanent clubhouse.

Your agenda prevents you from seeing the logic to siting the clubhouse at its present location, from the get-go.

 I understand hero-worship, but this is myth-making on a new scale!  


When you examine the 1903 New York State Topo, with the terminus of Sebonic Inlet rd and all of the other factors described by CBM, the present site was always the site he had in mind for his clubhouse.

George Bahto, TEPaul and I had this discussion in 2003 and all agreed with me at that time.

Eventually, like Jeff Brauer, you'll become entitled to my opinion
Siting the clubhouse there isn't genius, it's common sense combined with a desire to get out from under Shinnecock Hills's shadow,

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba,

No need to spread the nastiness to yet another thread.   If I was being obtuse it comes naturally was not "purposeful."

I understand Patrick's contentions, but I don't place much faith that the "crudely drawn" 1907 map is a reliable source for the exact location of either the first tee or the 18th green.  

And I am again left to wonder, what you are talking about regarding the Cape hole?  First you wrote:

I'm not sure i understand the basic premise here either.   If CBM wanted the green in today's location, what exactly was stopping him from putting it there originally?

   In this last post you wrote:

Also, what was preventing him from locating the cape green in today's location in the first place if it was a better hole from there?

Patrick didn't write that CBM moved it to create a better hole.  He  asked about the evolution of the changes to the hole. When and why it was moved, whether it was a better hole?

So I agree that you don't understand his premise, but I am still left wondering what you were talking about?  It seems you may have been talking about the 18th green in the first instance, and then switched course to the  Cape in the second when you realized the first didn't make sense.  

But then that it is probably just my natural obtuseness kicking in again.

[Mike Cirba]

*

[Andy Hughes]

For those not following the mess on the NGLA thread, I've contended that CBM's apparently needing to use the Shinnecock Inn for a clubhouse, which was 1.45 miles away from Peconic Bay, largely dictated an out-and-back routing along a generally narrow stretch, and also meaning he could only use 1/4 mile of that beautiful waterfront along Peconic Bay, and was therefore unable to fully utilize the 450 acres at his disposal, much of which is today the beatiful property of Sebonack GC.

When he routed the golf course in late 1906 and into 1907, he was somewhat land-locked based on his decision to use the Shinnecock Inn as his starting and ending points.

Sometimes, non-golf determinants drive what's possible.

Mike, I still think you are guessing on this--have we really seen anything that shows he would have preferred more land directly on the water?  CBM may very likely believe that he did indeed fully utilize the 450 acres and that the land best suited for golf was more important than land merely (not to minimize the beauty of the area mind you) on the water. 

[Andy Hughes]

(PS Mike, please remind me to stay on your good side!)

[DMoriarty]

(PS Mike, please remind me to stay on your good side!)

Andy, 

I'd prefer that Mike not turn this into yet another one those threads, so I think we should just ignore the nonsense and insults, including the bit about trying to shift the other NGLA thread over here.   

Patrick raised a few specific issues and I think we should address them rather than engaging Mike in his various pet theories.

Besides, I don't think CBM ever indicated that NGLA would NEVER have a clubhouse of its own, only that they would use the Shinnecock Inn initially, so it is probably worth considering what CBM might have been considering initially.     

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andy,

Remember, that initially, CBM didn't buy the land behind the current 1st tee.

That purchase, 2.5 acres, I think, came later.

If he wanted more waterfront property, he could have purchased it.

But, you have to consider the terrain on the water, on the land to the West and South of the present 18th green.
It's certainly very pitched, very steep, hardly the land for golf.

In addtion, If CBM had continued further west, beyond the current 18th hole, how was he to get back to his special holes, the Alps and Redan, and then, back to his original 18th green.  He couldn't, unless he was building a 27 hole golf course, which we know he wasn't interested in.

The water didn't hold the lure that we have today.
It was his holes that held his interest, not the views.

I find the 1903 New York State map very interesting in terms of clubhouse siting and the evolution of the 14th hole.

Macdonald stated that he found a better site, a better hole for the Eden than existed at TOC, due to the fact that a topped shot couldn't reach the green due to the presence of the intervening Sebonac Creek.

From there, it would appear that the tee for his Cape is immediately to the left of the Eden Green.
It has to be there, or perhaps a little further East, because that's where the water that the tee shot has to traverse is located.
So, my question, especially for George Bahto, is, where was the original green, relative to the current green ?

[George_Bahto]

Pat the original green was out in the water just about as far as where that tidal water surfaces - sort of in line with the present bunker short, right of the present green.

If I had the time I'd do an overlay but i'm not sure what the point is. The hole was moved and lengthened for a couple reasons.

Players downwind were getting close to driving the green - pissing him off and altering the basic coincept of his hole.

Also, of course, the new road to the new gate, yacht basin and bathing beach seemed to be more important to the overall interests of the club and its membership.

He must have had a heart attack thinking about moving that green inland 

[Patrick_Mucci]

George,

Would the left side of the original green be near the current left side of Sebonic Inlet road near the tidal basin ?

I'm trying to relate the schematic in your book to the google earth image.

[jkinney]

In re CBM's desire to always have the clubhouse (when built) in its current location, I can't imagine him wanting anything else, as much time as I've spent there. How could anyone in their right mind look west from Peconic's (then 8th hole & now 17th) tee and not want it where it now sits ?? I had the pleasure of carting with George Bahto at Tom's Renaissance Cup last autumn at the marvelous Common Ground in Denver, and I learned just how much antipathy there was between CBM and Shinnecock. That would be reason enough for CBM to site his clubhouse as far as possible away from Stanford White's masterpiece. As it is, sitting in the birdgage ranks only second in my pantheon of favorite places in the world to standing on the back tee of Peconic.

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